How do you advertise? I've got to figure out a different market....

[fastline]

Oddly, I have a few business but I simply enjoy excavation. I won't bore with my work history other than I was immediately introduced to highly technical work when young and didn't even know it. Bridges, overpasses, underpasses, etc. Mostly because my family was in there, they knew what I could do, so just threw the book at me....lol

Anyway, that was a short stint in my work life at the time but I returned. Today I mostly try to hug less stressful jobs that don't require all the red tape....like pond work and similar. But I am realizing that while all home owners 'want' a pond, very few know what it costs, have no intention of paying a real fee, and just want to see numbers. The very common email I get is, "how much for a pond?"..... This is just a waste of time. Talked to a decent guy today but wants a 4-5acre pond in a tough area that I know will have complications and I have learned to just throw some number and see what they do rather than even wasting the time to drive. I threw $40k knowing that is on the low end anyway and he said "yeah, I might have to just buy some equipment".

But the reality is pond work is something most folks expect to be nearly free, so I need to both move on, and figure out which markets to consider and how I want to advertise. It could well be that advertising is what is causing the pond issues as FB is notorious for people wanting something for nothing. Anymore I won't even waste the fuel before throwing some sort of number and seeing what they do.

Most of me wants to do WAY more technical work that takes some brain power. I do math for a living and I enjoy that challenge.

So I guess some of this post is a 'vent', some is asking about advertising avenues and technical work streams. I mean, you guys that say 'word of mouth' need not apply. I apparently don't have enough greased wheels in my circle to get that going.

 

[crane operator]

. I mean, you guys that say 'word of mouth' need not apply. I apparently don't have enough greased wheels in my circle to get that going.

Word of mouth isn't the same as "greasing the wheels" (which I think of as bribes or kickbacks). No amount of advertising will cover for a lack of skills or a bad reputation, or not being able to complete work on a schedule at a reasonable price. I'm not saying you are/ have any of those issues. but word gets around in the construction field in any area. Everybody knows everyone, and evidently you aren't considered as one of the "go to" people in your area. Advertising isn't going to change that.

Two years ago you asked for advice on the same subject, and you were having trouble finding work then, and several guys pointed out that it just takes time, and being good at what you do. Find a niche so to speak.

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/having-a-hell-of-a-time-finding-work-right-now.91436/

Have you tried doing anything different equipment wise, or in finding a different area of work since then?

I don't know if you are still a one man band, I think some customers aren't going to consider you, because they don't think that you are serious about being in the excavating business. Back then you had a excavator that was really too big for most "everyday" type jobs. Difficult to mobilize. And no help to get stuff done because you didn't want employee's. I don't know how much of that info you gave then is still accurate to today.

If you aren't getting work, its maybe that you aren't set up for the common work in your area, I don't think any amount of facebook/google/ radio ads are going to change those metrics. If I remember right your main business was a machine shop or something similar? Maybe that's your niche?

Perhaps you need to sit down and take a serious look at what you really want to do- and what you are really good at doing? If you want to be busy in a excavator every day, you need to look for work that keeps a excavator busy every day?

If you can't be busy right now in the construction industry, and haven't really been able to take off in the last two years, you need to do something different.

Most of me wants to do WAY more technical work that takes some brain power. I do math for a living and I enjoy that challenge.

I'm just quoting this, because I don't know you and can't go off of any info but what you give. But this statement right here, to me, says maybe the problem isn't the customers or your equipment or advertising, but that you're trying to put yourself in a business that you aren't suited for. Square peg in the round hole.

If you consider yourself as "doing math for a living" - even you don't think of yourself as "I run a excavating company". You look at the excavating as a hobby, not what you do for a living.

 

[Vetech63]

Start wrenching for a living. Plenty of that work to go around…….I’ll even throw you some so I can get a break.

 

[fastline]

Word of mouth isn't the same as "greasing the wheels" (which I think of as bribes or kickbacks). No amount of advertising will cover for a lack of skills or a bad reputation, or not being able to complete work on a schedule at a reasonable price. I'm not saying you are/ have any of those issues. but word gets around in the construction field in any area. Everybody knows everyone, and evidently you aren't considered as one of the "go to" people in your area. Advertising isn't going to change that.

Two years ago you asked for advice on the same subject, and you were having trouble finding work then, and several guys pointed out that it just takes time, and being good at what you do. Find a niche so to speak.

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/having-a-hell-of-a-time-finding-work-right-now.91436/

Have you tried doing anything different equipment wise, or in finding a different area of work since then?

I don't know if you are still a one man band, I think some customers aren't going to consider you, because they don't think that you are serious about being in the excavating business. Back then you had a excavator that was really too big for most "everyday" type jobs. Difficult to mobilize. And no help to get stuff done because you didn't want employee's. I don't know how much of that info you gave then is still accurate to today.

If you aren't getting work, its maybe that you aren't set up for the common work in your area, I don't think any amount of facebook/google/ radio ads are going to change those metrics. If I remember right your main business was a machine shop or something similar? Maybe that's your niche?

Perhaps you need to sit down and take a serious look at what you really want to do- and what you are really good at doing? If you want to be busy in a excavator every day, you need to look for work that keeps a excavator busy every day?

If you can't be busy right now in the construction industry, and haven't really been able to take off in the last two years, you need to do something different.



I'm just quoting this, because I don't know you and can't go off of any info but what you give. But this statement right here, to me, says maybe the problem isn't the customers or your equipment or advertising, but that you're trying to put yourself in a business that you aren't suited for. Square peg in the round hole.

If you consider yourself as "doing math for a living" - even you don't think of yourself as "I run a excavating company". You look at the excavating as a hobby, not what you do for a living.

So I need to go deep into 6 figs in more equipment and put several people on the payroll and the phone will start ringing? Quite literally the only people that ring me are looking for basically free work. Enough so that I now just shoot from the hip with a low number and see what they do. The discussion of equipment, personnel, and competence rarely comes into the discussion. Literally "how much for this?"....

I mention my math (engineer) background only because it affords me the ability to both design/PE stamp, and execute a job. It doesn't mean I want to get into massive municipal projects though. I am just looking to graduate away from pond work.

There is a ton of residential housing happening right now and I even reached out to a classmate and builder/developer that probably does 150 homes a year. He has a guy he calls for basement digs, end of discussion. Didn't even get to learn what they cost or anything.

 

[fastline]

Start wrenching for a living. Plenty of that work to go around…….I’ll even throw you some so I can get a break.

Ha, I did turn pro wrenches many years ago but I don't think I could handle the aggravation. I work on all our own equipment and that keeps the water salty for me....lol

 

[GODSDOZER]

Plenty of those looking for the "cheap", I just move on when that happens or tell them " I am not your guy, I dont do cheap work but rather professional work".

Another thing, If I throw out a number to someone prior to looking at the jobsite I always throw out a high number, not a low number. You can always present a bid less than the number you gave, but sometimes its difficult to present a bid for more than the number you gave them.

I would rather my equipment sit at the yard not being used, than to go out and work for nothing. At least I'm not running my equipment in the ground for chump change.

 

[AzIron]

I keep 10 guys busy everyday doing mainly service excavations it's a mix between hourly and bid but we rarely install any pipe or material it's all equipment time I went to commercial work because I got tired of dealing with mrs Robinsons mindset in residential.

I still do residential almost none of it is for the homeowner it's for a sub or a gc simplify the aggregation

If your a 1 man outfit doing residential and all you have is big equipment then your missing over half the available work to you when it was still me myself and I I had just a backhoe and then I passed on enough mini work that I realized what I was leaving and I was allowing steady customers to call somone else with a mini that was trying to also take my backhoe work. Small equipment stays busy easier that big iron.

If your in a low end area then nothing is going to change no one has money to do what they want despite what they think I drive an hour from home to get to an area that pays in residential that I want in my area that I live people try to do it themselves or simply just can't afford it

And reputation is the only advertising I have ever done but when we get slow I pick up the phone and call all the regulars and then cold call potential new customers it's a whole lot of work

 

[CM1995]

So I need to go deep into 6 figs in more equipment and put several people on the payroll and the phone will start ringing? Quite literally the only people that ring me are looking for basically free work. Enough so that I now just shoot from the hip with a low number and see what they do. The discussion of equipment, personnel, and competence rarely comes into the discussion. Literally "how much for this?"....

I mention my math (engineer) background only because it affords me the ability to both design/PE stamp, and execute a job. It doesn't mean I want to get into massive municipal projects though. I am just looking to graduate away from pond work.

There is a ton of residential housing happening right now and I even reached out to a classmate and builder/developer that probably does 150 homes a year. He has a guy he calls for basement digs, end of discussion. Didn't even get to learn what they cost or anything.

You have a PE stamp and in the excavation business?

What contracting licenses do you have or are required to have in OK for commercial work?

If I had a PE stamp to go along with our GC license here in AL we would run out of ink in the money printer.

 

[GODSDOZER]

Good stuff AzIron. I live in east texas, most in our area do not have the money to do large projects (lakes, large land clearing ect). I have been in business for 24 years and 90% of my residential customers are from Austin, Dallas, Houston who buy land here in east texas to retire, or a weekend get away property. I could not support myself on the demographics of east texas general public.

For the last 1 1/2 years, I was fortunate to land a job an hour and half away but at least they have $$. Yea its a long drive each day but the $$$ makes it worth it. They are good people and have deep pockets. Finishing up lake #1 this week, and starting lake #2.

 

[AzIron]

I missed the part about a PE stamp holy hell dude burn the world down

On another note I have worked with 2 PE contractors one was a complete book smart moron the other could see all the potential problems on drawings that he didn't stamp and would proceed to kill his work because he couldn't leave the engineering out of his contracting mindset so he usually disappointed his customers with to much knowledge he couldn't just build there dream

 

[Georgia Iron]

Fastline,

What can you actually do with your equipment that others don't offer. I lot of people on this forum use their equipment as one piece of the puzzle for construction purposes. For me everything I do is about concrete work. Every machine has its place when it is needed but selling the product gives my machines work.

Along with that work it opens doors to all kinds of other projects. I do not really get good calls to do just machine work, too many guys have a pickup truck and will work a skid steer for $50.00 an hour and they will be out of business in a few years. That is work you dont need. Also old timers run track loaders building small house sites for very little money. They never seem to do it the way I would but they price it $10,000 less than I could and it is very hard to compete.

On large commercial jobs here, the major dirt players have your equipment, plus dump trucks, plus every other machine made and enough men to run a site fast. I can not compete with that. They have so much money and machines backing them and they are making a fortune. The last job I was on, the big guys had an 8 million dollar dirt contract. But they had 20 million or more in machines on that job and at least 30 men on site. I bet they spent a million in fuel. So after seeing how that works a dozer and an excavator won't do me much good because I don't have the other pieces of the puzzle.
I would starve.

I would say you need to sell a product or go to work for someone that is selling products or a service. Such as buildings, houses, etc. Or buy raw land, a house or a building, use your equipment to fix it up and then sell that product. Ponds are a product but farmers do a lot of work themselves to save money.

You need to use your equipment doing more than just what the machine can do. There are 10s of thousand of machines and lot sit not being used. And then there are companies that have 2000 machines and they get all the work because they are selling products, such as roads, bridges, sewer, clearing, and so on..

You almost have to look at other businesses and be able to do what they do.

Here is something else I heard..

So a company here was in the logging business. They would get a contract on cutting timber and start a job. When the logs went to the mill the mill would be "full" and not taking the timber, even though they had a contract. They would have to haul logs to mills much further away or take a lower price.

They had full line of equipment to clear land. They moved into clearing for hunters and rich city folk that bought a farm just outside of the city that needs work. And they stopped logging and are running a full crew, and advertising for this type of work now. But you would again compete with them and they have log trucks, skidders, dozers etc..

 

[Welder Dave]

Have you talked to contractors that use your services? Your friend doesn't sound like that good of a friend if he won't give you a chance. If you know how to dig basements efficiently go and talk to home builders in your area. If you do pond work maybe you could do other jobs like digging stumps. Try and find out what others are charging and price your services around the same price. You can be a little lower since you're new but don't go too cheap or you'll get a bad reputation in the industry. Try and figure out what types of jobs would require a PE stamp and you've got a big advantage over other contractors that have to pay to get someone who can give a PE stamp. Talk to the local chamber of commerce. Apparently lots of similar types of contractors get along pretty well and try to help each other out.

 

[crane operator]

There is a ton of residential housing happening right now and I even reached out to a classmate and builder/developer that probably does 150 homes a year. He has a guy he calls for basement digs, end of discussion. Didn't even get to learn what they cost or anything.

150 homes a year would be more than you could get done. Maybe find the guy who only does 5-10 homes a year, and can't get any of the big guys to call him back. Do a great job and then maybe his three buddies that do a similar amount will call you, and suddenly you would be looking for help.

I would think it would be difficult to do any commercial jobs with just one piece of equipment. Most of those customers want you to do it all, one-stop shopping so to speak.

Do you still just have the one big excavator and no way to move it yourself?

 

[fastline]

150 homes a year would be more than you could get done. Maybe find the guy who only does 5-10 homes a year, and can't get any of the big guys to call him back. Do a great job and then maybe his three buddies that do a similar amount will call you, and suddenly you would be looking for help.

I would think it would be difficult to do any commercial jobs with just one piece of equipment. Most of those customers want you to do it all, one-stop shopping so to speak.

Do you still just have the one big excavator and no way to move it yourself?

For the most part. Have other ag equipment, the D7, and looking to buy a CAT 299 but not really just for this stuff. What I have never been afforded in my life, as I find others have, is offered jobs that I can get and justify the equipment purchase. I must not be in the right networks. So buying other toys is sort of a gamble.

I really want to position myself in the bigger equipment workspace, while still doing smaller jobs, but I think those are harder to find. We have some names in the area that have massive fleets and they get daily calls to bid jobs because they have to toys.

What I have never done is call the CEO of my former company that literally owns like 10 companies from here to other countries.. He is a civil engineer, former Army corp, and that is where I did the BIG jobs, like $80M 6 lane flyover projects. I just feel he is WAY over my head in the work space. He has not touched a residential housing project in his life. I just don't know how to ask people like that.

 

[crane operator]

What I have never been afforded in my life, as I find others have, is offered jobs that I can get and justify the equipment purchase.

I guess I don't know anyone either, that was guaranteed a job with enough profit, to pay for the equipment needed for the job. I've bought some specialty equipment that one job paid for, but it was always after I had purchased a specialty item. (And probably nothing more than a $5,000 item).

I really want to position myself in the bigger equipment workspace, while still doing smaller jobs,

I don't think it works that way. Or it hasn't in my experience.

I wouldn't mind having a 300 ton crane, but the work available in the limited area that I want to work in, just doesn't have many jobs for a 300 ton crane. I don't want to travel 3 hours in every direction to keep it busy. I like sleeping in my own bed. So I only have cranes from 15-100 ton. Because that's what I have been able to afford and that's what I can keep busy.

Size the equipment for the skills you have (or can hire) and size the equipment for the work you can get.

So buying other toys is sort of a gamble.

They aren't toys. If you had to buy a excavator that would pay for itself- you maybe wouldn't have bought the excavator you have? It certainly isn't paying for itself if you can't find work for it, and it hasn't for the last two years. I don't buy anything, that I can't see/pencil how it pays its own way. Because I don't have a different revenue stream to pay for it. I have to make money.

There are all kinds of guys out there, that have a excavator and a dozer, and stay busy all the time. Why can't you? The answer isn't advertising. I don't know what the answer is in your case, but if you are honest with yourself, or ask your customers, you'll find out.

 

[crane operator]

I read what I just posted, and I sound like the biggest as*****. I'm sorry. I wish it was going better for you.

I would be a huge failure as a banker/lawyer or a insurance guy- or any kind of office work. After 4 pages of paperwork, my eyes glaze over and I'm just done. I hate sitting at my desk unless I'm goofing off on heavyequipmentforums.

I also can't do precision machine work. I bought a lathe and a mill a few years ago, and I sold the lathe and the mill sits in the corner of the building and has never been wired up. I just don't care about farting around and measuring and remeasuring and making that kind of precise stuff. I would rather pay someone who knows what they are doing to make it. I like the idea that I could machine stuff, I'm just too lazy I guess.

I can weld and fab. I don't have any desire to weld every day. I get distracted, I should say I allow myself to get distracted, and just can't concentrate that long to just burn rods hour after hour, for weeks on end. I just make things for our own business, and if someone knows me and wants a little help.

I work on my own equipment just enough to keep it all running. But I'm not suited to turning wrenches everyday.

There's all kinds of things that I would be poorly suited to doing, even if I had the money to do them.


I have a good customer, has always done large and small commercial septic/ sewer work. Used to have a large crew, pouring concrete walls and floors for municipal sewer systems. Successful contractor. 10 years ago, he "semi- retired", and wanted to do something else.

He wanted to open up a "really nice" steakhouse. Him and his wife always liked going out, and he was very successful in his construction business, so he bought a building, set it all up and opened a steakhouse. He wanted to provide a really good food for people on friday and saturday night downtown. And it didn't work out, at all. After sinking a lot of $$ in it, he gave up. He and I have talked often about it, and he's back doing septic work on a smaller scale, as much as he wants to. He's got other investments, and he's not sitting on the side of the road with a cardboard sign. But it was really hard for him to not be successful at that, like he was in his construction business.

 

[CM1995]

Size the equipment for the skills you have (or can hire) and size the equipment for the work you can get.


They aren't toys.

Took the words out of my mouth Craneop.

We do primarily small commercial projects in the retail, light industrial and institutional markets. Average job is $150-250K with some being less than $100K and a few much more. It's hard for us to justify a job less than $50K.

Commercial jobs have a stamped set of drawings and specifications spelling out exactly what the job is and the desired outcome once completed, not much is left for interpretation. I find this type of work easy to bid and profitable to perform.

It usually involves some site demo, erosion control (we sub that out with a 17% MU), grading and storm drainage. Storm drainage is the most profitable aspect of those scopes for us.

The equipment we have is dictated by what works the best for what we do. For example our prime pieces of equipment are a 325 trackhoe, D3/5 dozer and 279D CTL. Support equipment includes an 84" padfoot compactor, trench rollers and a 305 mini-ex. I still love track loaders but we don't use our 953C much anymore, it's been at our dump for the last 3 years.

GPS has changed the way we perform these projects in a way I did not fully understand nor appreciate prior. It was a large investment but it has already paid for itself on our D3. Currently have a 325 Next Gen fitting with full auto GPS at our Cat dealer awaiting delivery. If the 325 with GPS comes even close to the productivity gains the D3 has I will be giddy to say the least.

With all that being said I could still be trying to force my 953 on these commercial jobs all the while my competition is literally running circles around me fine grading a parking lot with a D3 full auto GPS. The job or service determines the equipment needed to be profitable. Like someone said up thread - square peg, round hole.

We do not advertise and don't want to. The last thing I want is a direct line to the general public with no understanding of what things cost asking for prices on their project. I cannot compete with bubba's with a backhoe working for cash with no insurance or licenses.

Our customers are commercial GC's with 100's of millions of annual revenue that know how to build projects. Paperwork is 30-40% of our revenue stream and we're ok with that. From bidding to contracts through submittals, change orders, ASI's, billing, lien waivers and project closeout. To me the paperwork is not hard and actually low hanging fruit, I guess that is my skill outside of the field work.

Good thing I can do the paperwork because I'm a lousy mechanic and have to pay experience folks for that service.

Didn't mean to make this an autobiography just wanting to share what's worked for our operation.

 

[Welder Dave]

If you could find a couple contractors like CM that might sub out smaller jobs or could refer small jobs they hear off to you is worth looking into. If you do good work your name will get around. The last thing you want is to have a larger contractor upset with you because they referred a job and the customer wasn't happy with your work. A lot of jobs go out on a tender too. Gov't. jobs for sure. Find out how to get your name on the tender list and you'll be sent the details of the job and asked if you wish to submit a bid. Jobs like demolition are often put out for tender. I'm sure there must be some excavation type jobs too.

 

[MG84]

I’m one of those “word of mouth guys” you mentioned, but I’m going to throw in my 2 cents worth anyways. I’m a small one man show with a backhoe, dozer, ctl, mini ex and single axle dump truck. FWIW I’m completely covered up with work and also near the top end of the price scale for our area, but it has taken nearly 15yrs to get there. A few things I’ve found that will make for a profitable construction/excavation business:

- Do premium quality work and charge accordingly. Along with that cater to higher end clients, FB or craigslist is not where you find them

- Sell the finished product, not the equipment or service (don’t advertise as ‘backhoe work’ or ‘skid steer service’.)

-I personally bid every job, and look at every job in person before giving a price. I find it much more lucrative and rewarding than doing hourly work.

- Once you set a price stick to it, even if you lose money. Next time you’ll do better at bidding. The only exception to this is adding a rock clause or if additional work is added.

- When you’re on site up-sell other services or potential projects the customer may be interested in. They may not know all of your capabilities/services, or if that ‘problem area’ could even be fixed.

- Often times the way to make the most money with equipment is by using it to support the entire construction project. Instead of just doing the dirt work for a barn, I’ll clear the land, build the pad, mill the lumber on site, build the barn, maybe do some fencing, etc etc. Vertical integration.

-Use versatile and easy to move equipment. Anytime your moving equipment you’re losing money, make it as easy as possible. On small jobs I’ll load up my ctl and mini excavator on the trailer, throw the extra buckets for the mini, and a set of forks and grapple for the ctl in the bed of the dump truck. Now in one trip I have everything I need on site to do an extremely wide variety of work. On slightly larger jobs I often team up the backhoe with the dozer, again a combo that can do almost anything.

Hope some of this helps.

 

[AzIron]

I bought one machine for a price the job paid for after I had a signed contract and that's only because I triped over the deal and I only got it cause I had cash in hand it was used abused and in another state but it fit the need and avaliable budget and yes that was a huge win but I have not come close sense to repeating that

Everything I have bought to venture into other areas like when we started fine grading for concrete was at big risk I had no real experience with that line of work nor did anyone that worked for me so we gambled all the way I subsidized us figuring it out didn't really start making money till the 3rd job.

I bet I spend 10 hours or more a week chasing work outside our big contracts I probably cold call 2 new customers a quarter to develop new relationships almost every customer i have i cold called to get a few were word of mouth and it takes months to develop somtimes i have a customer that we have been waiting to do the first job with for 3 months because of schedule conflicts in the residential work we do we work for GC or a sub contractor these amount an avenue of repeat work homeowners are typically one and done especially with grading pads for a house.

My point is running iron is probably not half of being an owner op and it takes a massive amount of follow thru to develop buissness and the bigger the jobs the more time it takes to put it together