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Hard starting 328D John Deere skid steer

Discussion in 'General Industry Questions' started by jack01, Apr 24, 2019.

  1. jack01

    jack01 Member

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    It has just over 1100 hours on it, and as mg2361 posted there are no adjustment for valve lash. I wish it would be that easy though. Thanks
     
  2. jack01

    jack01 Member

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    We have owned the machine since new and the engine has never had any work done to it as far as internal goes. The starting issue is all we have messed with besides normal service work. I did remove the valve cover here a few months back when the issue worsened and changed the injector harness because I have had a few problems with them before, but that solved nothing either. I did check the push rods then but they looked fine. Thanks
     
  3. jack01

    jack01 Member

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    I checked all the sensors and switches with the EMU and they all seem to be working fine.
     
  4. john hofer

    john hofer Well-Known Member

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    Piston rings never seated
     
  5. Paul Council

    Paul Council Well-Known Member

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    Or installed wrong. I have seen it before. It is rare but it does happen. That motor could have been built on a Friday before a three day weekend.
     
    mg2361 likes this.
  6. thepumpguysc

    thepumpguysc Senior Member

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    Master Inj.Pump rebuilder
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    Hey Paul, that's nuthin'.. I got a machine from the dealer w/ zero hrs on it & they couldn't get it started..
    They thought it "mighta' been" a fuel system issue..
    I loosened the lines AT the injectors & hit the starter.. that baby spun up to around 200-250 rpms & spit fuel a city block outta the lines..
    I said, "wait a minute, that doesn't sound right".. it spun up way to fast.
    I pulled a couple of injectors & hit the starter.. NO COMPRESSION..
    They "forgot" to put rings on the pistons.!!! & it made it past QC & out of the factory doors & delivered to a JD dealer.!!!
    Like you said, "Friday engine" Lol
     
    Paul Council and mg2361 like this.
  7. Truck Shop

    Truck Shop Senior Member

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    Compression issue possibly due to hydraulic lifters pumping? Just a thought. Years ago I use to get JD heads in that were hard to start because the valves had sunk in the seats/
    but those were high hour engines. I would replace the seats and valves depth mic each valve move them around to get them as close as possible then deck the head to bring
    it back to spec.
     
    DB2 likes this.
  8. Howey75

    Howey75 Active Member

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    IL
    Engine oil pressure ok?could it be the ecm waiting to fire until oil pressure builds enough hence why it starts hard while warm?disregard if you checked this.Good luck!
     
  9. john hofer

    john hofer Well-Known Member

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    I've also seen a tiny break in head gasket right in between pistons
    Anytime and engine is hard to start when warm there is a compression problem.
     
    Truck Shop likes this.
  10. jack01

    jack01 Member

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    It doesn't use any oil, and once it starts it runs fine with no power issues what so ever. So without actually doing a compression test I can't say for sure but I would think if i had low compression I would have other problems as well. I have not had a chance to look at it yet but hopefully will real soon.
     
  11. jack01

    jack01 Member

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    It has good oil pressure while cranking, and will set a code for oil pressure out of range high. I don't remember the code number but it basically says the engine has oil pressure and the engine is not running.
    Thanks for all posts.
     
  12. partsandservice

    partsandservice Senior Member

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    I have a theory developed only by the information that was provided here, so take for what it is. You have had two failures at the same time and one is progressive damage. If the new harness had been hooked to donor ECU likely the problem would have been solved. The ECU and the harness we're never replaced at the same time. The fact that you can change the harness on the pick up sensors and the code moves leans to an issue in the cam sensor circuit, fault code moved with the wire. An old fashion load test on the cam sensor wires would be in order. The ECU needs to see both signals to start properly. Most engines only getting one or the other signal will start only after extended crank time.
     
    mg2361 likes this.
  13. partsandservice

    partsandservice Senior Member

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    Somewhere along the way there could have been some poking around with a test light or power probe.
     
  14. jack01

    jack01 Member

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    You know I would say you are on to something because I kinda thought the same thing about it being part ECU and part wiring harness, but I removed the terminals one at a time from the ECU connector and the cam sensor connector ran a separate harness outside away from the factory harness. I twisted the wires together as well and put them in their own loom, and got the correct terminals for both ends so i wouldn't have to cut and splice anything. This did not make a difference and it was after I did this that the dealer tried a different ECU. We were thinking it might be the harness getting noise in it at first that's why we tried replacing the two wires. When that did not work they tried the different ECU and then ran the test for noise and so on. I am the only person besides the dealer who has worked on this machine for the electrical problem and I know that I haven't poked around on the wires. I hope the dealer hasn't been either, I would think that they would be smarter than that, but one never knows. I haven't seen any marks on the wiring either.
     
  15. RobertJ

    RobertJ Member

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    Location:
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    It's been a couple months so I'm not sure if you've figured this out yet or not but here's my thoughts.

    If I'm reading this correctly you swapped the connectors between the camshaft position sensor and the crankshaft position sensor, so you plugged the crank sensor wire into the cam sensor and vice versa. The code changed from reading a camshaft error to a crankshaft error. This makes me think the wiring is good, if the wiring were the problem the code would have remained a cam code. I think either the cam sensor is bad or its not picking up on the tone ring. I would swap the cam and crank sensors (assuming they are the same, they are on most Deere common rail engines but I'm not familiar with your engine) leaving the wires hooked up where they should be. If the code then switches from 636.10 to 637.10 then you have a bad sensor, if not then it is a tone ring issue. I know you said the dealer put in new sensors but I have seen many sensors come from Deere DOA and cause me to further diagnose where there wasn't a problem.
     
    mg2361 likes this.
  16. Zewnten

    Zewnten Active Member

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    We had a skid come in for hard start issues, crank and crank and eventually it would start. No codes and ran great once started. Turns out it was missing the O-ring on the fuel water separator from the factory and their maintenance guy never knew it was missing, so it wouldn't keep fuel pressure in the system and had to be primed every time it sat.
     
    mg2361 likes this.
  17. jack01

    jack01 Member

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    Location:
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    Sorry for taking so long to get back to you guys about this machine, but it still has the same hard starting issue. I did finally get around to checking for parasitic hydraulic loads and the test was good. I also checked the exhaust temps with a thermal imager and it all seemed to heat up evenly between the cylinders and the temps for each cylinder seemed to climb and even out about the same with 1 & 5 being around 415 degrees, 2 & 4 were a little higher and 5 was a little higher. Didn't really see anything that stood out as a problem. As far as the thought of the fuel issue goes I have already put a seal kit in the filter base and checked for fuel bleed back. It will hold 4-5 psi for a couple weeks on a mechanical gauge and will build upwards of 30 psi after about 2 seconds of cranking. Also the timing sensors are the same and they have been changed out twice, once by me and once by the dealer. I have 4 spare sensors that all test the same. If I swap the harness ends it does change the code from 636.10 to 637.10 and I have swapped sensors and it still has the same code that's why I had thought it may be a timing issue with the tone wheels, and that's why I took it to the dealer to have it checked. They said the timing was perfectly fine. Weather or not they actually checked it I don't know, but I did pry around with a small screw driver on the tone wheels and they didn't seem to move either. I'm going to try to borrow the tools from them to check the timing myself if they let me. Any other ideas? I'm all ears.
    Thanks.
     
  18. mg2361

    mg2361 Senior Member

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    To properly check the timing on that engine there is a tool that goes in place of the #1 injector to block the cam at a specific point and then the timing pin is supposed to fit into the flywheel. If the pin does not engage the flywheel then there could be a cam gear slippage issue. Switching the wires for the sensors and the code changes tells me it is in the sensor (not likely since you have multiple sensors) or something within the engine...tone wheel/timing, etc. If you know someone (maybe at an auto shop) with a two channel scope you can check to see if they are in time with it (easier than pulling an injector). The break in the tone wheels for the crank and cam should line up and look something like this...

    Engine Speed Sensors.png
     
    Vetech63 likes this.
  19. mg2361

    mg2361 Senior Member

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    Sorry, meant #1 unit injection "pump".