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Hard starting 328D John Deere skid steer

jack01

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Mar 6, 2019
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14
Location
Indiana
Hi guys, this is jack01. I have a 328D John Deere skid steer that is extremely hard to start. It will crank for at least 20-30 seconds at a time before it will start, and sometimes i have to hit it several times before it will go. I have taken it to the local dealer and they had no luck at figuring it out. They reprogrammed the ECU controller, tried the engine and main harnesses, tried new cam and crank sensors, reworked the fuel supply hoses and filter base, checked the engine timing and a few other things. They put in a DTAC case through Deere and they were even stumped. I am hoping that maybe someone could shed a light on this problem. I am open to any and all suggestions.
Thanks
 

mg2361

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Any codes? Was fuel pressure checked? Did anyone replace the fuel return line check valve?
 
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Welder Dave

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How old is it? The dealer couldn't figure it out... maybe the dealer should be replacing it with one that starts or giving you a free loaner until they figure it out. I'm really liking my older equipment more and more when I hear stories like this.
 

jack01

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Mar 6, 2019
Messages
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Location
Indiana
Any codes? Was fuel pressure checked? Did anyone replace the fuel return line check valve?
The only code that sets while cranking is ECU 636.10, camshaft position signal rate of change abnormal. The fuel pressure was one of the first things I checked and it seemed to be fine, but I went ahead and changed the check valve anyway. The fuel pressure holds about 28-30psi while running. I left the gauge on it for a full week and it did not drop below 3psi, and as soon as I start cranking it jumps back up but does not start. Even if I have the machine running for a good while and get everything warmed up and shut it off it will not start back up. I have done most of the work to this machine myself until I got to the point of having to connect to it with a computer to reprogram the ECU and run tests, I don't have the tools to do that. If I swapped the crank and cam connectors around then it will set ECU 637.10, crankshaft position signal rate of change abnormal. This is what led me to think it was a wiring issue and so I took it to the dealer to have some tests ran to see if it was getting noise in the circuit, but the test showed good. So I let them reprogram the ECU, then they tried a different ECU out of another machine and it still cranked a long time before starting. I hooked up the new harnesses and tried them because after spending almost $3000 and they wanted another $2000 to install the harness on top of the price of the $1900 harness I told them I would put it in and try it, but with the same outcome. The harness was also the only fix Deere could come up with as well. I did remove and return the harnesses and hooked the old ones back up since there was no change. I also took the headliner out and checked all cab wiring to and from the EMU and checked all connections. I also installed a new injector harness just to be on the safe side. It almost seems like the injectors are not powering up because while it is cranking there is no smoke out of the exhaust, but I think for as much time as I have in this thing already I may just trade it off cause I don't know if I want to throw $5000 worth of injectors at it and still not fix it. The injectors are another Deere idea and since its not at their expense why not just have me throw parts at it:mad:. Sorry just a little frustrated with this thing. What I really need is a sore butt emoji. I worked for a Deere dealer for 15 year working on ag and construction equipment including skid steers and have never heard of this problem before. I am just hoping maybe someone will say try this and it will work. Sorry for writing a book here, and thanks for the reply.
 

thepumpguysc

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WOW Jack.!!! It sounds like u went thru it w/ a fine tooth comb.??
Question>> "WHAT" does the crank sensor read from.?? There might be a problem "there"..??
Did the crank sensor have any garbage on it when u pulled it out.?? Can u "clean" that spot.??{sand paper}
I haven't "had the pleasure" of working on them so I don't know all the sensor positions..
I'm SURE u thought of this already but.. no harm in letting the rest of us know..
I sure am interested in the fix.. Thanks
 

jack01

Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Messages
14
Location
Indiana
How old is it? The dealer couldn't figure it out... maybe the dealer should be replacing it with one that starts or giving you a free loaner until they figure it out. I'm really liking my older equipment more and more when I hear stories like this.
It is a 2011 model so it is out of warranty of course. The real thing that gets me is it has been doing this since it was new and they came out and looked at it several times, but it was not this bad. At first it only started hard after running it for a long time and shutting it off and then trying to start it again after about a half hour or so, but it would only crank for about 8 seconds then and start so they had a hard time trying to diagnose it. It wasn't until this past winter that it got really bad and started throwing a code for the first time. I will agree with you, the older equipment is easier to figure out and work on and cheaper most of the time as well. The dealer is at the mercy of what Deere tells them to do. About 10 years ago I could have called one of the older engineers at Deere that I had for training and they probably could have helped figure it out, but they have all retired and all that is there now is young hotshots. If the problem doesn't already exist and it's not on the screen in front of them their idea is to just throw parts at it until it is fixed and then they know for the next time. It's not just Deere either all the big companies do the same thing. They don't do the R&D anymore, let the mechanics figure it out and they can tell the companies how to fix the problems for the next time. Thanks for your post.
 

jack01

Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Messages
14
Location
Indiana
WOW Jack.!!! It sounds like u went thru it w/ a fine tooth comb.??
Question>> "WHAT" does the crank sensor read from.?? There might be a problem "there"..??
Did the crank sensor have any garbage on it when u pulled it out.?? Can u "clean" that spot.??{sand paper}
I haven't "had the pleasure" of working on them so I don't know all the sensor positions..
I'm SURE u thought of this already but.. no harm in letting the rest of us know..
I sure am interested in the fix.. Thanks
The Crank sensor is mounted on the RH side of the block and reads off a tone wheel that is pressed onto the crankshaft. I did pry on the tone wheel through the sensor hole to make sure it wasn't loose, and when I had the dealer time it up since they thought it may be a timing issue and you have to have a dummy injection pump to do so it timed perfectly with cam, crank, and flywheel. The cam sensor is in the timing cover and reads off a tone that is bolted to the cam gear. I made sure it wasn't loose as well. There was no garbage on either sensor and they tested good but for the heck of it I tested new ones for comparison and installed the new ones. I have the repair and operation and test manuals for the 326D, 328D, and 332D skid steers, and both 2.4Land 3.0L CTM for the mechanical and power tech E engines, but there is only so much books can do when it comes to controllers. I have several other books for other JD equipment as well. I quit the dealership a few years back and went on my own, but lucky for me this skid steer belongs to the farm and I have a hard time telling the farms boss(DAD) that it needs to go to the dealer to be worked on. If I ever do get it figured out I will post it. Thanks
 

mg2361

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Here is some reading material. You probably have seen these already. Don't think it is the issue but worth looking at are the relays and their connections. We have seen a lot of funky stuff do to water infiltration corroding the connections at those relays.
 

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Welder Dave

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So it's had a history of this since new and basically just got worse as time went on after the dealer has already looked into it (I assume when it was under warranty). I think I'd be contacting someone at mother Deere and telling them to look after the machine you paid good money for.
 

BigWrench55

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Does this machine have common rail fuel system? If so I'm thinking it's the relief valve on the common rail. It is the sensor on the assembly where your injector lines start and lead to the injectors. The only way to see if it is working is with a laptop. I would think that the dealer checked for that, but then again they are just wanting to throw parts at it until it runs at your expense. Good luck to you.
 

BigWrench55

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Word of caution. Common rail fuel systems have extremely high pressure. 30,000 psi and higher. When attempting to work on it crack the lines at the rail loose 1/4 turn to relieve any pressure. If your high pressure relief valve is failing and dumping your fuel pressure then your injectors will not open. Thus the no smoke while cranking.
 

jack01

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Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Messages
14
Location
Indiana
Here is some reading material. You probably have seen these already. Don't think it is the issue but worth looking at are the relays and their connections. We have seen a lot of funky stuff do to water infiltration corroding the connections at those relays.
The only things I didn't look at is the exhaust temps and parasitic hyd loads. the cranking speed is good according to the dealer and they also ran a miss fire test and said it was good. I checked and cleaned all fuses and relays, plus the new harness had all new fuses and relays in it and I still had the same issue so that should have ruled out any connection issues i would think. Thanks for the reading material. I'll check into the rest of them this weekend and let you know the outcome.
 

jack01

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Mar 6, 2019
Messages
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Location
Indiana
So it's had a history of this since new and basically just got worse as time went on after the dealer has already looked into it (I assume when it was under warranty). I think I'd be contacting someone at mother Deere and telling them to look after the machine you paid good money for.
Yeah it's been like this from new but it was very intermittent and i know them problems are hard to track especially when there is no codes. It didn't really get bad until this past winter and i just kinda thought it was a sensor or fuel issue but it actually starts better when it's cold. Once i get the machine running and warmed up and shut it off it cranks even longer to before it starts. Normally when it's cold it will start within about 30 seconds, but after it is warmed up it may take up 1 minute of cranking off and on to start. I also noticed that if the glow plugs run for 10 seconds or so it will sometimes start better as well, but not always. It would have been nice it they would have tried throwing parts at it when it was under warranty instead of now.
 

Welder Dave

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It almost sounds electrical if it starts better cold. I had problems with the Nippondenso starter in my skid steer. The copper contacts in the solenoid wouldn't always fully engage when it was warm and would arc instead of turning the engine over. When it was colder they would engage. I wonder if there is a bad connection somewhere or a bad ground.
 

BigWrench55

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How many hours are on the machine? Might be that your valves are out of adjustment. Have you run an overhead valve adjustment or at least check the valve lash?
 

mg2361

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Have you run an overhead valve adjustment or at least check the valve lash?

Great thought Paul, but their is no valve adjustment on that engine. It has hydraulic lifters. In that line of thought however, if anyone had the rocker arms off did not collapse the lifters properly on installation they will bend when the engine is started. Worth checking. Can be checked without removing them. Just twirl them to see if they wobble.
 

jack01

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Mar 6, 2019
Messages
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Location
Indiana
It almost sounds electrical if it starts better cold. I had problems with the Nippondenso starter in my skid steer. The copper contacts in the solenoid wouldn't always fully engage when it was warm and would arc instead of turning the engine over. When it was colder they would engage. I wonder if there is a bad connection somewhere or a bad ground.
I cleaned all grounds and connections to the starter. The battery is only about 2 years old and it seems to crank fine. I have checked all connections for pushed or corroded terminals and everything looks good. All the tests that the dealer did per service advisor came back good as well. I would kind of think that by putting a new engine and main harness in that I should have also eliminated any connection issues as well. Thanks
 
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