Government mandated age limitations on equipment--split from 'Chinese graders' thread

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . this ten year B/S is crazy. As a for instance. That forty year old J621 that features in another thread would probably strip and stockpile topsoil cheaper than any thing in existance.

If you have an efficient machine why shouldn't you use it when you tender on a job.

I don't think this calls for the customary cheers.

 

[John C.]

Can someone cite the actual law limiting use of equipment anywhere?

When the air pollution stuff started here in the states, all the government types figured a dozer, scraper or wheel loader lasted about as long as a car driving on the highway. So they figured any piece of iron would be obsolete and out of the production stream in no more than twenty years with the average item gone in ten. There was a huge shock at the state levels on the left coast when they found out there there were hundreds of pieces in excess of thirty years old and a few scraper fleets still around operating that were forty years old.

As I recall that is why the Tier rating were implemented. It was a way of limiting the life of old technology iron. I'm thinking that Tier 4 Final will require parking any non Tier rated machinery for commercial use in this country. By that time I'm also thinking they will set a date to retire Tier 1 iron in the not distance future as well.

 

[Bluetop Man]

Tell you what. Some of the exhaust coming out of old engines, diesel and gas, is so loaded with pollutants I'm for getting rid of them all right now.

And then like one truck leasing agent said in Heavy Duty Trucking several years ago, "The exhaust coming out of some of these new diesels is cleaner than the intake air in some operating environments." I'm down with that.

I drove a cabover KW in 1972 with a CAT 1693 diesel rated @325 HP. I wonder if some of the particulates it spewed are still suspended in the atmosphere...

That sucker also had a very curious transmission set up, a 20-speed Spicer developed for Army tanks with the first ten holes blocked off. It had an odd shift pattern, but effectively transferred the torque of that humongous engine without tearing up. Ran like a sick dog I thought. The ones turned up to run at 440 were some kinda hotsy-totsy. Word was you could burn the tires right off the rims in the hills if you didn't respect the power. Any, here's to air you can breath without dying.:drinkup

 

[Greg]

truefin says 60 to 75 Euros , or 75 to 90 US dollars for grader work. I assume that means machine, fuel, operator and the whole nine yards.

Put a grader on a white sheet job here in the US and wages and fringe allowance will eat up close to $50.00 an hour. Add in employer portion of Social Security, state and federal unemployment and workman compensaton insurance, close to $18.00 for fuel and the $75 to $90.00 is long gone without allowing for machine maintenance, company overhead and the like.

The numbers just don't work.

 

[truefinn]

truefin says 60 to 75 Euros , or 75 to 90 US dollars for grader work. I assume that means machine, fuel, operator and the whole nine yards.

Put a grader on a white sheet job here in the US and wages and fringe allowance will eat up close to $50.00 an hour. Add in employer portion of Social Security, state and federal unemployment and workman compensaton insurance, close to $18.00 for fuel and the $75 to $90.00 is long gone without allowing for machine maintenance, company overhead and the like.

The numbers just don't work.

Yes, approx. 30 eur will cover everything for the operator so there is anohter 30-45 euros for fuel and maintenance.

The numbers work but you do not see any new Caterpillars here. What is a cost of a new CAT in US btw?

 

[Greg]

Not sure what a new Cat 12M costs here, but I know they are a pretty penny.

Small guys like me are not buying them, that is for damn sure.

 

[Bluetop Man]

Small guys like me are not buying them, that is for damn sure.

Yeah, it makes you want to grade out with a D4 to close tolerance and finish with a box blade. Kind of like when the business went from scrapers to ag tractors with pans. The dozer/pan combo of yore was the ideal dirt bulking system until the track expense killed it. But talk about move dirt turn on a short turnaround haul, it will never have an equal.

But I digress. Back to graders, Some CAT dealers are sellling and renting NORAMS, which now come with CAT engines. Must be a future there for the small guy at around $130,000 USD new for these remakes of the Fiat-Allis 65 Series machines. They've got that Roll-Away modlboard feature which increases production.

 

[CM1995]

Reading the other thread about the chinese grader got me thinking, yeah that can be dangerous.

Are these regulations requiring newer equipment not perpetuating the "throw away society"? Now I am not implying that a chinese grader is a throw away, it's deeper than that. If the governments around the world start to require that a piece of iron be XX years old, wouldn't the contractors that are affected by this regulation not start to look at the cheapest, newest option without regards to longevity?

Just a thought...

 

[qball]

this thread hits close to home for me because i am working for a contractor who runs almost all older iron. a 235, 977, 955, d8-h and some other odds and ends. i enjoy running the old stuff but it is to the point here in chicago that this iron is all illegal on some jobs. breaks my heart because it all runs so well.

 

[truefinn]

Reading the other thread about the chinese grader got me thinking, yeah that can be dangerous.

Are these regulations requiring newer equipment not perpetuating the "throw away society"? Now I am not implying that a chinese grader is a throw away, it's deeper than that. If the governments around the world start to require that a piece of iron be XX years old, wouldn't the contractors that are affected by this regulation not start to look at the cheapest, newest option without regards to longevity?

Just a thought...

Without any real support, yes they are throw away now but in the future, who knows.

I guess these regulations were ment to protect the job site, normally new machinery outperforms the old one and usually they are more reliable. In real life this is not of course the case but they have to draw the line somewhere to avoid situation where anyone can take part in these tenders with machinery from middle ages.

 

[JDOFMEMI]

Without any rules of the sort our market sorts this out. The large, high production jobs typically go to the contractors with the newest, best maintained fleets, while there is plenty of work for what I refer to as the second and third tier contractors.

I believe what matters more than the age of the machines is the history and experience of the contractors involved. If the customer knows you have a reputation for many breakdowns, and resulting project delays, you will soon not be invited to bid. Also, if you have a history of getting jobs done on time, it matters little what age equipment you use to complete it.
I have completed many projects on time using equipment ranging from new to 30 years old, with an average fleet age of around 18 to 20 years. On time work can be done by having all new iron, at a substantial cost, or having some spares for the older machines, so if one breaks down, one is ready to go to pick up the slack.

A good example is scrapers. When I had 10 older machines, I would never figure a job that needed more than 6. Then, there would always be a spare ready. If I could keep machine availability to only 60%, the job would run at near 100%. Even with 25 to 30 year old machines, a good mechanic can get 60% reliability, and the job will not suffer from it. The difference is that the 10 I had combined cost less than one brand new machine.

You can only afford brand new machines of the larger variety if you have years of steady work lined up. With the older machines, they are paid for, and if there is a delay in the work, you do not go broke waiting for the next job to start. With new equipment comes a huge payment, and the banker doesn't care that a permitting problem delayed your job for 3 to 6 months. He wants hois payments whether you are working or not. That is a quick way to ruin, if you ask me.

 

[rballison9]

One thing for sure, the cost of doing business always seems to go up.