Genni Lift starting problems

[driveshed]

Hi Guys
Well to get this going ,I have a Z45/22 Gennie lift Model# Z-45- 003938, It has the LRG423 Deul fuel,
Eng Ser# 06038 L-18RK
Model # LRG4231-6007-B
Model Code# 5C-199_BA

I got this unit from a freind this fall to help finish the shop and when he drop it off it was running but running rough. but when it got hot it would not start untill it cooled down. First thing we replace was the temp sendor at the front of the engine and put a new coil on it , when it was hot there was no spark at the plugs. After doing that still no fire, chang the crank sensor ,new timing belt and it started right up. it run good but when it got hot all it wanted to do was fire up and stop. So I read the manual I have and found out it was not putting out a enough current at #2 termial at the engine lock out module. that curent come from the alternator so replace it. Once I put that on it has not started since. I have only have spark at the # 1 spark plug once in awhile and it looks let it fires three times when it does fire # 1.
This has got looking at the DIS but one guy told that if the DIS goes it goes . If anyone can up please do , this unit has me puzzled.
Thanks
Dave H
Driveshed

 

[willie59]

Hmm, I'm not seeing the service manual for your serial number machine, can you give me the part # of that service manual?

 

[willie59]

I think I may have found the correct diagram, would it be drawing #ES45F-1 H?

Terminal #2 on engine lock out module? Are you referring to the Ignition/Start module in the lower control box?

 

[driveshed]

Hi Willie
Yes that #2 termal is on the ingnition/start module , the manual says that I should have 6 to 7 volt on that when cranking and I and only get 2.6 volts .

 

[driveshed]

Hi Willie
I was talking to a guy today and he said that you can change the ford LRG423 engine back to a distribur and coil to save on buying a new Module and wiring harness. He said it was not hard to do ,Genni did have some that where set up that way. he said to hook up the wires comming off the electric govener the the neg side of the coil and that would read the coil for high rpm. I known genni had some with a distribur in them but I don't know if it is as easy as he says. What your opinon on this
Thank Dave H

 

[willie59]

Well, I'm not sure what voltage is supposed to be on Term 2 on Ignition/Start module, but I know that's a tach input to the I/S module, that's how it knows the engine is either running or stopped. As for the swap from DIS to rotary distributor, an engine wizard would know that stuff, and an engine wizard I'm not, I make a point to forget everything I've ever learned about spark engines. However, yes, earlier Z45/22 machines had a rotary distributor, if the fellow said it can be done, you might be able to use the diagrams from an earlier s/n Z45/22 as a road map to wire it up. Myself, I've never been a change person, I like things to stay as designed. Not saying you shouldn't do it, just my preference.

But back to your problem, the engine won't re-start when it gets hot, I assume that means "operating temperature" and not really "hot". In this condition the engine would start up but immediately die. Have you put a meter on the ignition wire that powers the DIS spark box to see if it's losing power? That same wire also powers up the Ford ignition module on terminal 8 of the module, and also sends power to the electric choke on the Zenith carb. If you lose power on that wire the engine is gonna die. But if it doesn't lose power and engine dies, either something wrong with the DIS system or you have a fuel supply problem.

 

[driveshed]

Hi Willie
I do agree with you on changing up things I don,t really like that ideal. I will check the voltage on # 8 tomorrow. I might be busy getting bad storm here in the great white north. What get me about this thing is when it does fire on the test light it is bright strong but it will fire some times three time while cranking it .

 

[willie59]

Well, you mentioned earlier you were losing spark, which I don't know if you are or not. But we need to start by verifying the ignition is staying powered up to the Ford module and the DIS spark box. And it needs to be a good nominal 12V, not a voltage drop to, say, 7-8-or 9 volts while cranking or running.

 

[driveshed]

Hi Willie
I will check that on friday, I just got back to the shop Busy , I think I have 12 volt at the ford module and at the DIS box but I will double check. One thing I did find out that I only have 4.89 volts at the choke when I am cranking it over , I remove the wire off the choke and try it and I have 12 volts maybe my choke is burnt out .
thanks
Dave

 

[willie59]

Yes, you need to verify the wire going to the DIS spark box and to terminal 8 of the Ford ignition module has nominal 12 volts when cranking, should be a white wire according to the diagram I'm looking at. If you only have 4.89 (5 volts) at those points you're going to have trouble starting. And this would be with the wire hooked up to the choke. Better yet, test it both ways, with wire hooked up to choke and disconnected.

BTW, I need to know if I'm looking at the right diagram. If you look on the Genie ID tag on your machine it should say on that tag what electrical diagram applies to your machine, I'm looking at drawing #ES45F-1

 

[driveshed]

Hi willie
I time to start testing and yes # 8 has 11 volt with the choke unhook if I hook the wire up it drops to 4.25 volts so with the wire unhooked it will give spark on #1 somtimes an it would try to start .

 

[driveshed]

hi Willie
well I did some more test and on # 8 I have full volt when I unhook the starter and when I hook it up it drop to 11.8 volts . and it is the same with all the ing circits they drop ,so I think and I may be wrong the starter is drawning to much and is robbing it from the eng module, I check the conection at the starter all clean all good. will that much of a drop affect the fire on these machines
Thanks Dave H

 

[willie59]

I'm a bit confused by the results, in post #11 you get 4.25 volts, but in post #12 you get 11.8? 11.8 should be enough to power an ignition circuit, that's not far from 12 or 12.5 nominal volts. Yes, a starter that's in poor condition can draw excessive amps to operate and rob needed power from an ignition circuit, I don't know if that's happening in your case. A weak battery or poor connections can do it as well. I'm trying to figure out if you have excessive voltage drop on your ignition circuit and the tests so far aren't conclusive. If you can verify the battery is good, the connections are good, and the cables are sending good power to the starter posts, I'd like to try running a jumper wire from the positive battery connection at the starter to terminal 8 of Ford module and see what we get when cranking.

 

[driveshed]

Hi Willie
When the wires that go to the choke ,if I hook to the choke the volts there when cranking ouer is 4.25. If I remove the wire the volts are at 11.5 when cranking. I will try run a wire let you said and I will see what happens
Thanks DaveH

 

[driveshed]

Hi Willie
well today I got some time to do a little more testing and I found that the DIS is not put 12 to both coil wires only one and with the spark test hook to # 1 cly it is only firing about every 6 to revouation so i think my problem lies in the DIS .
Thanks alot Willie for your time
Dave H

 

[driveshed]

Hi Willie
well Iam wait to get price on new ign module, today a buddy of mine come over and we were looking at it and he is pretty good at ign stuff and he started to play with it and before I knew it ,it was running. what he done was put resistance on the two wires from the DIS to the crank sensor and she had lots of fire and started. before I was not sure that it was the DIS or not but I figure I was in to this thing this far . I contact genni and they told me that there is no way to test the DIS. My buudy said that there is a resistor in there and it is probbly burnt out. What is your feeling on this.
Thanks Dave

 

[willie59]

Your buddy knows way more about it than I do. Like I said early on, I've made it a point to intentionally forget everything I've ever learned about spark engines, I just dislike the little critters. Granted, they make our world go around, but I prefer someone else work on them.

Hopefully you're making progress getting it sorted out. :drinkup

 

[driveshed]

Hey Willie
Yes I think now we are on the right track with this unit ,I don't what to buy a whole lot of parts if not needed. I always say it better to repair that replace. there is one other problem with this unit , it does not go into 4 wheel drive . I know that the 4 wheel drive only work in slow speed . where should I start testing this problem .
Thanks again
Dave H

 

[willie59]

Well, that's one of the toughest things to troubleshoot on an aerial lift machine. I don't have the hyd schematic for your machine so I can't offer anything specific. I don't know about your machine but most of the Z45/22 machines were in dedicated 4WD mode, didn't have a switch to select 2 or 4WD. If that's the case with your machine, many things can cause this problem. Failed planetary, failed motor, failed o-rings on one or more of the cartridge valves in the transmission valve, failed components of the transmission valve, too many things for me to point you to a culprit.

 

[driveshed]

Thanks Willie I will keep you posted on the turn out.
Dave H