Flood plain filling

[tuney443]

Well,my Thanksgiving weekend has been completely ruined from a letter I got Friday from the town where my shop is.Titled ''order to remedy''.For the last 22 years I've been slowly filling in my lowland which is in a floodplain,near a creek.I always thought this was OK as the previous owner,also an excavator, did the same thing and the town did know this.Also,I had a DEC officer there once on another matter,so I asked him what he thought of my plans to fill and he said fine,just stay 200' away from the creek and protect the finished slope with erosion control measures of some sort.

So,just recently,I took advantage of some free fill down the road,they were bringing the fill to me.Somehow,I reason,the town found out and sent me that letter that says I'm in violation for filling a floodplain,the local codes which are tied to FEMA,the penalties,and of course to cease all activities regarding filling,grading,etc. except for soil stabilization which they are requiring to be in place by 12/8/10.They are giving me 2 options: either remove the fill or submit an application for a grading plan and an environmental assessment form [EAF].

Anybody ever go through this or have any ideas? I was planning on meeting this lady who sent this,she's the administrator of public works,first thing tomorrow to see exactly where I stand,I don't think I should say too much just in case she can hold it against me later,especially without a lawyer present.My stomach has been in knots over this--hardly able to eat any bird.

 

[tuney443]

Nobody around today?

 

[digger242j]

38 views of the thread thus far, so somebody's around.

I've never been in a similar situation, maybe none of the others have either, so all I can do is wish you good luck...:beatsme

 

[Raildudes dad]

Unfortunately I suspect they "gotcha". Just because you and the previous owner have been filing the area for years, doesn't' make it ok. Don't get belligerent or nasty with the lady. Be polite and explain that you were continuing the previous owner's work and you figured someone would have objected if it was not ok.

Bottom line is "they " will want corrective action taken. Your goal is to keep as much fill as you can and hopefully not get fined. Hire an engineer that has a good working relationship with the DEC. He will help you keep as much as you can and minimize the enforcement actions taken ie fines & penalties.

I've seen it go both ways. DEC writes the letter, owner doesn't do anything and it goes away. DEC writes letter, owner ignores and ends up in court.

Good luck

 

[willie59]

Not to mention, we all know how government works, they change the rules from day to day. It could be that all the enviro codes have been turned up side whacked since the last time you had someone of that authority out there. I don't see how in the world and individual could enter into a personal terrain changing project nowdays and possibly know what all government guru's they must get a blessing from before beginning the project. The bureaucratic beast is daunting to say the least.

 

[motrack]

A small part of the family farm here in Ohio in in a flood plain and we have been dealing with this for 40 years. We can remove dirt from that area but can NOT replace it nor can we add fill.

I have seen others in the flood plain add fill for years and suddenly receive a letter. They can make you remove everything back to natural grade line..... it all depends on the attuide of the land owner.

If you hang your head in shame and take the brow beating all is generaly forgiven with a warning to not add any more fill....... If you proclaim loudly its your land and will do as you see fit then your going to lose.

Now that ALL waterways in the US fall under the Army Corps of Engineers they have been watching flood plains very closely as of late.

This has been my experience....... your milage may very.

 

[td25c]

Next step I would take tuney is find out if the area you filled is considerd "wetland" or not.Government protects wetland with a vengeance.Bigg differance between a wetland & flood plane.This is kind of a sore spot for farmers in my area.They own the ground but cant drain it or clear it for crop production.Some fields are considerd "farmed wetlands" that may have some drain tile in them,Farmer can repair the existing tile but cat install any additional fingers.I think alot of this started with "The Clean Water Act" passed in 1972. Might give your local NRCS office a call.They may be able to help you determin if it's a wetland & may be able to help in other ways on the matter. http://nrcs.usda.gov/

 

[tuney443]

Thanks everybody,this has me up in arms because of the unfairness of all this BS.Here's the scenario: Lot A is against the creek,I have lost app.20' of land 90* to the creek over the last 19 years.There is no rip-rap,just unprotected bank-run gravel on my 350' app. of shoreline and upstream of me is the same.Late Winter and into the Spring,there will be the occasional flooding which will bring the state of NY's water onto me,right now as I type,this water is perfectly clear.When it floods,complete different story--it's brown as can be from of course those unprotected banks.Believe it or not,this land is zoned vacant industrial-makes no sense. I once asked our town supervisor what can I do with it other than grow rice? He just laughed--couldn't answer.Now Isn't that brown water,laden with silt that will kill the trout and their eggs,the very same brown water that could ''possibly'' be discharged by my filling as my town is ultimately saying to me??????????

Lot B is where I'm filling,an extension of my contractor's yard.I'm filling to the elevation that will be permissable to build someday a building.
If they were really interested in protecting habitat,at the very least they would either rip-rap,gabions,jute fabric with good deep roots from some kind of plantings,etc.They also should deepen the channel to prevent flooding in the first place,but we all know that won't happen.The downstream lake where this dumps into before it empties into the Hudson River is now an average of about 2' deep.When I was a little boy,my Dad used to take me there fishing and you couldn't see the bottom.A terrible shame.

Yes,I have been practicing all weekend on being very nice tomorrow.I'll have to swallow some more of those special ''nice'' pills before I get in my truck. Lol.TD25--it's not wetland--it's the 100 yr. floodplain status.

 

[tuney443]

Just checked the grid # on my paper work.She's got the wrong lot,as I described,she's got Lot A.I'm perfectly innocent of all charges.If this was private biz and not the governments,she and/or her secretary who probably typed this would possibly get fired,at least a serious ass chewing.Well,I'll use this maybe tomorrow to my advantage some once I get a feel of the land.

 

[CM1995]

As it's been said in this thread "They gotcha'", your guilty in the eyes of the regulations. Notice I said regulations, not the law. Unlike our rights we have of being innocent until proven guilty under the eyes of the law, there is no such protection when dealing with Gov't regulations. I have dealt with legally filling floodplains and also had the unfortunate dealings with the EPA.

Now are you sure it is just a floodplain you have filled and not a flood way? The difference is you can obtain permits to fill a floodplain but you will never be able to fill a flood way.

My advice would be to meet with the inspector, be very nice and ask questions about how to fix the situation. Gather as much information from the inspector as you can. After the meeting, (like has been suggested earlier) find a civil engineer that is versed in floodplains and FEMA permitting.

From the information you have given, the FED's are not involved and this is a very good thing. If you can handle this on the local level between the inspector and your third party engineer, trust me the outcome will be a lot less severe than dealing with the FED's.

Do you have a survey of the property that shows the 100 year flood line? If not that is your first order of business after your meeting with the inspector. An accurate survey showing the 100 year flood plain will determine how much of the flood plain you have filled. Maybe you haven't filled as much as they think.

Whatever the outcome, it's not going to be an easy deal and it will cost you some money. I just want to shoot you straight.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[tuney443]

Yes,CM1995,it's definitely called the 100 yr. floodplain.As you stated,you can get a permit for filling that and sitting right next to me is that very form that I had in my ''land papers'' file which I believe is correct titled Short Environmental Assessment Form.Yeah,Iknow--I just prey that my old adage of asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission holds true here.Anyway,this form seems extremely simple and easy to fill out,somewhere there just has to be a catch.Guess I'll find out soon enough.

 

[tuney443]

Just ranting,but something just hit me like a ton of bricks.In 2006,while hiking and camping at Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico[world's largest scout ranch,donated to BSA by Wade Phillips---Phillips Petroleum] we encountered a flash flood one day.Pretty awesome sight and also the way my group found out what it was.We're under the porch of a cabin in the outback listening to this ranger talk about Indian history there,it's a wet nasty day,and I started smelling like a heavy dose of an organic type smell.Then one of my boys asks is this one of those canyons where you get flash flooding?Ranger says yup,sure is,we get one about every 3-4 days.So the scout asks well when was the last one?Ranger says about 3 days ago.As soon as he said that,this dry creekbed suddenly is alive with brown water,with debris and small branches in it.Then,within 10-15 minutes,small trees are coming down stream.I think everybody's mouth,including mine was like wide open in disbelief.We stowed our food up in bear bags right on this treed low area earlier in the day--we went hungry that night,no way could we safely get close.Anyway--here's the point[sorry for rambling]--next day 2 Cat 950 loaders come down to desilt the gravel roads.They are taking the silt and just dumping it right in this still flowing murky stream.As I'm hiking by,I see the 1 operator taking a leak so I ask him if that's standard operating procedure in these parts.He says sure,the silt came from up above,now we're just sending it somewhere else downstream.I tell him if I did that in NY and got caught,all hell would come crashing down on me.Go figure.

 

[tuney443]

Well---looks like I dodged a bullet.I go in there to talk to her,right away I sense she's extremely nice.She tells me it's her job to abide within reason of FEMA's rules in that somebody's land downstream will now have more flooding possibly because of my filling.I yes her some,promise no more filling,I'll build a gentle 3 on 1 slope,rip-rap it.She almost went for it,said she wants to try and find some old topo maps before the filling started before she makes a decision.Says I might need to hire an engineer.Later in the day I get the word no engineer needed,she wants me to remove some of the fill,she'll set a reasonable timetable and also to seed and mulch the new slope.Almost painless.It must have been that extra splash of Ralph Lauren's ''Romance'' cologne that I slathered on this morning.Couldn't be happier.

 

[bill onthehill]

Glad it went well today. The DEC and ag service boys are using satellite images to watch everything anymore. Down here in Steuben county they use it at the county level to check for changes to existing structures as well. They can actually layer it on a cad system over a previous image and see just who has been doing what. Once the ag service blesses a project they will inspect but pretty much leave you alone as long as nobody complains about runoff.

 

[CM1995]

Congrats Tuney you got really lucky! Remove the fill she wants moved, plant the best grass you can, hell plant flowers on it but do it quick and let all that go away.

 

[RonG]

Take lots of pics to document everything too.There is no excuse with the digital technology available,you can buy nice cameras for ten bucks these days.Save the pics on a CD in case your harddrive goes down.CYA.Ron G

 

[tuney443]

Take lots of pics to document everything too.There is no excuse with the digital technology available,you can buy nice cameras for ten bucks these days.Save the pics on a CD in case your harddrive goes down.CYA.Ron G

Good idea, I just charged up my Sony digital,thanks

 

[motrack]

They just shut down the construction of a new underground mine portal In Ohio because someone graded out a "water way" that was only a muddie little ditch.

EPA,MWCD,and few other goverment agencys were there today looking things over as I drove by.

 

[tuney443]

Starting to get a little worried now.I haven't heard from the town in 4 days.She's probably trying to find those old topo maps I bet.I hate worrying about the unknown if you get my drift.

 

[mitch504]

She's a beaurocrat. You might hear in a few weeks. She's probably not even thinking about you.