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Engine Oil as Hydraulic Fluid??

Madaboutoil

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Feb 3, 2013
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4
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Perth
Just another comment. Engine oil is fine as hydraulic oil. As with a number of comments. Key criteria is OEM specs. You must consider OEM viscosity requirements. The good thing about engine oil as a hydraulic is
1 greater thermal stability due to the add pack and generally due to the base oil type GrP 2 v GrP 1.
2 multi v - so less start up lag etc.
3 rationalisation of grades

However you need to consider

1. Some hydraulic systems call for zinc free - engine oil contains zinc
2. Depending on quality of engine oil and the use of VI improver you can get polymer shear. Which will lower viscosity

Engine oil 15w/40 is generally 12-14 cst @ 100 cel and 95-105 @ 40. So I ideal for hydraulics looking for an ISO 68 or 100 hyd oil.

But in most instances engine oil will perform as well at a minimum but will in most cases cost more.

Like a number of people have said from a rationalisation point it makes sense. But it's horses for courses.
 

Randy88

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Feb 2, 2009
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iowa
I"m curious, how does warranty come into play, when something goes wrong when you have a dozen different oils listed as possibilities to dump in, as long as one of those listed is in the component your warranty is good? Around here, when my dealer tells me to use a certain oil, its the end of the discussion pretty well, and what's used, so I would have warranty and no hassles if something did go wrong, is that what others have found?
 

Nige

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In my opinion so long as you were using an oil grade whose viscosity was correct for your ambient temperature conditions and it was included in the table of recommended oils your warranty should be good. The first things the dealer has to prove to me is that the failure was related to incorrect lubrication .........
 

WhyWhyZed

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Feb 14, 2008
Messages
147
Location
Canada
In the late 80's Caterpillar and Navistar came up with HEUI/PowerStroke diesel engines. These engines are fitted with a Vickers design axial hydraulic piston pump (almost identical to many implement pumps on machines with load sensing) that raises oil pressure to around 4000psi max to actuate the injectors.

At that time, all DEO manufacturers made sure their oils had all the properties of a good hydraulic oil (anti-foaming especially). If old technology oils were used, the oil would get foamy and the engines would lose power as the air bubbles compressed in the injector actuators. By the mid 1990's all DEO in the western world had the right formulation.

That's why modern DEO is fine for Hydraulic systems.

Generally, the hydraulic system is the least finicky compartment. There's no byproducts of combustion (soot) to keep in suspension, and no clutches to worry about. It's just an incompressible media that's slippery enough to keep pump bearings and such lubricated.

For Cat dealers, the use of DEO in hydraulics makes their lube trucks way simpler to equip.
 
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WhyWhyZed

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Feb 14, 2008
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funny story... when I was a technician at a Cat dealer, I filled an excavators hydraulic tank with TDTO 10W (as the shop bulk tanks had been switched without my knowing- had been 10W HYDO in there for ever).
The service manager was an idiot who didn't know which end of a wrench to hold onto - He freaked out and made me drain it and refill with 10W HYDO despite my saying it was fine. Then he made me sign a redo sheet and I was not allowed to work on that customer's machine ever again.
This was a week after I had turned him down for an offer of a service supervisor job that he wanted me to take for a 40% cut in pay.
Smartest thing I could do was just keep my mouth shut, sign it and carry on, but it always bugged me that he targeted my reputation to a large customer.
 

blitz138

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Jun 22, 2011
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335
Location
Utah
I"m curious, how does warranty come into play, when something goes wrong when you have a dozen different oils listed as possibilities to dump in, as long as one of those listed is in the component your warranty is good? Around here, when my dealer tells me to use a certain oil, its the end of the discussion pretty well, and what's used, so I would have warranty and no hassles if something did go wrong, is that what others have found?

Randy, yes any oil thats listed on the OEM spec will keep you covered under warranty, if your dealer tells you different hes either lying or ignorant.

There is a law called the Magnuson-Moss act.....this is a law all about warranties. This applies to different thing but since were talking oils ....... Every OEM has a certain spec when it comes to oils, as long as your meeting that spec your warranty will be in place. Take for instance, when you buy a Ford, Ford cannot force you buy Motorcraft from the Ford dealership to keep up the warranty. You can go to any quick lube, they should be able to comply with your vehicles warranty specs.

Same thing goes with Heavy equipment. If your equipment calls for a certain type of hydraulic fluid you need that spec or better, using motor oil could void the warranty.
 

Nige

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funny story... when I was a technician at a Cat dealer, I filled an excavators hydraulic tank with TDTO 10W (as the shop bulk tanks had been switched without my knowing- had been 10W HYDO in there for ever).
The service manager was an idiot who didn't know which end of a wrench to hold onto - He freaked out and made me drain it and refill with 10W HYDO despite my saying it was fine. Then he made me sign a redo sheet and I was not allowed to work on that customer's machine ever again.
This was a week after I had turned him down for an offer of a service supervisor job that he wanted me to take for a 40% cut in pay.
Smartest thing I could do was just keep my mouth shut, sign it and carry on, but it always bugged me that he targeted my reputation to a large customer.

What a d**khead .......!!
Strange. We don't use 10W HYDO on our site - just 10W TO-4. So there's never a question of putting hydraulic oil into a system that needs TO-4 oil.
 

crazy-mp

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Oct 3, 2012
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28
Location
SW MO
When I was given full control of the maintenance side the first thing I did was change out the oil, they only had 10wt and 30wt oil :eek:

I had change a lot of oil and read a lot of maintenance charts in the first year, now I have a cheat sheet in my truck that tells me each machine and what oil goes where.

I have several Komatsu dozers that call for 15/40 in the hydraulic system, that's the only one that comes to mind
 

Gary B

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Dec 14, 2014
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Wisconsin
If the sticker is gone on a CASE 820 loader, and you aren't sure of recommended additives, can 1540 oil mix with hydraulic fluid? Will it mix or separate?
 

Nige

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G..G..G..Granville.........!! Fetch your cloth.
Mixing fluids in a system is never really recommended, especially if you don't know what's in there right now. Better to drain and start again with something that you know.

The days of using engine oil as a hydraulic fluid are pretty well past. It comes from a time long since past when the manufacturers were trying to get down almost to a single type of oil in a machine. Well that horse has bolted and although engine oil is still on the list as an "approved" fluid for hydraulic systems personally I'd have to be pretty desperate to use it. Hydraulic systems need an oil specifically designed for use that type of system, not something that's best suited to keep the products of combustion suspended in an engine oil pan.
 

Zeeshan

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Mar 26, 2015
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Australia
First post, so please bear that in mind. My background's similar to Cat 793 - large open pit mining tools. Currently working for a mining company on an open-pit gold mine in the Caribbean, but for almost 20 years I worked for Cat dealers, and before that for other mining companies. Started back in the 70's on open-pit coal. We always joke that if you can't walk underneath it standing up it it's not worth working on ...

A few thoughts about oil......

Most manufacturers will give you options about what oils you can use in a certain compartment. The idea is to be able to reduce lube inventories by stocking less different grades while still covering your bases regarding compliance with the OEM oil specification.

For example in a current model D10T Tractor you have the option of using 9 (yes, that's right NINE) completely different types of oil in just the hydraulic system. Some are Cat's own oils, changed at 4000 hour intervals, others are commercial oils changed at 2000-hour intervals. A number of the oil options have direct relevance to the ambient temperature, and obviously you wouldn't use the same viscosity of oil in Northern Canada as you would in the desert in Western Australia. The list includes synthetics & mineral-based oils, specific hydraulic oils, engine oils, TDTO (TO-4) oils, & multi-purpose tractor oils. ALL are acceptable provided they fit the ambient temperature limits listed in the manual.

However for 24/7 mining operations we usually toss the ambient temperature recommendations out of the window, basically because they're designed for cold starting every morning and or course machines that work 24/7 allegedly never get cold. Even if they do it's generally the mechanics and not the operators who start them from cold and thus we can control how they are warmed up to make sure components don't get damaged. So as a rule we would go for an oil viscosity that might be heavier than suggested by the ambient temperature chart for the machine in question.

A point was made about oil-cooled brakes on Cat trucks. We have 777F & 789C both with oil-cooled brakes. This system is combined with the converter and dump body hoist. It needs a TDTO oil (or commercial TO-4) with friction modifiers because of the brake packs. We use a commercial SAE 10W TO-4 in these systems. However the Steering systems on the same trucks can get by with an SAE 10W hydraulic oil. Rather than have two 10W oils on site we opted to run all hydraulic systems on 10W TO-4 for ease of inventory and also to make sure that someone didn't dump a pure hydraulic oil in a brake cooling tank by mistake. Consequences would have been pretty dire.

Truck and Tractor final drives we run SAE60 FDAO oil (FD-1). It's really the only option for 24/7 mining operations as opposed to an SAE50 TO-4 which will not maintain a good enough lubrication film under high stress conditions. Weird thing we went from SAE50 to SAE30 TO-4 in motor grader tandems because the 50 was giving us brake issues.

A digression to Hitachi. I've seen a number of users switch from the Hitachi zinc-free Super EX HN 46 to other brands of hydraulic oil (non zinc-free) and go through total pain with pump failures. Until recently the Hitachi oil was the only zinc-free option on the market but now I hear there are others. One such option is Conoco Ecoterra HVI 46, but I have no experience of that oil. We're running 2 Hitachi EX-3600 machines here in addition to our Cat fleet.

One last thing that a lot of people forget is about oil cleanliness. If you can keep oil clean using regular oil sampling and a particle count to measure the ISO Code, and dialysis (kidney looping) when necessary you might be amazed at the increase in life you can get from components. The last decade has seen pretty much all the major manufacturers put in big efforts as regards contamination control.

Hi Nige,

You come across as a very knowledgeable bloke.

I work for a mining company and have few Hitachi excavators like EX 3600, EX 5500-5, EX 5500-6 and Hitachi recommends zinc free hydraulic oil.

I have been using zinc free hydraulic oil since day dot but still see zinc levels in used hydraulic oil upto 30-50 ppm and all excavators are going through varnishing issues in pumps and valves which result in jerky hydraulic operations.

I have checked with some other mining companies here in Australia and they also experience zinc levels in used zinc free hydraulic oil from these excavators. and they are seeing levels of zinc more than 100 ppm.

Please note that the hydraulic filters used here are not usually fleet guard filters which are known for having leaching zinc in the oil at operating temperatures for hitachi hydraulics. Hydac filters are predominantly used in these applications.

Can you please shed some light on where that zinc in oil would be coming from?

Thanks

Zee
 

cutting edge

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Mar 27, 2010
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upper canuckistan
I can answer this one ^^^

Trace levels of zinc are likely from the erosion of surfaces in hose end fittings,adaptor fittings and even the hardware used to fasten them.
 

Zeeshan

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Mar 26, 2015
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Location
Australia
Thanks cutting edge.

Traces of zinc would be less than 10 ppm, but if you are getting more than 40 ppm of zinc in oil its way too much considering you have around 6000 litre of hydraulic oil in a typical hitachi 5500.
 

blitz138

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Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Messages
335
Location
Utah
Zee,

Are you storing the ashless oils on site in a metal vessel? Ive seen new "zinc free" oil come to site with 30-50 ppm of zinc, from cross contamination.

Nige will have more experience than me, I'm sure he'll reply soon.
 

Zeeshan

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Mar 26, 2015
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Location
Australia
Zee,

Are you storing the ashless oils on site in a metal vessel? Ive seen new "zinc free" oil come to site with 30-50 ppm of zinc, from cross contamination.

Nige will have more experience than me, I'm sure he'll reply soon.

Thanks Blitz.

Ashless oil is stored in metal tanks but we have taken a sample from bulk tank and tested, but it came out with no zinc as well.

So we can rule bulk tank leaching zinc into the oil as a problem
 

apetad

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Jul 24, 2012
Messages
385
Location
Leander, Texas
Occupation
Compact Construction Equipment Sales
Started selling LOTS of drive motors and hydraulic pumps to a particular customer, Went to their location and found "R&O" some full, and some empty, buckets all over the place, The new manager freaked when he found out how much they were spending on AW68 so he had switched everything to "R&O" We told him that "R&O" oil absolutely would not work in hydrostatic systems, our "Arrogance" made him so mad that he fired us!!! No good deed goes unpunished???
 

attaboy

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
17
Location
United States
Kind of depends on the Generation of Hydraulic System. A Variable Displacement Piston pump would barely last the week out on Multi Grade Engine Oil.

I have a 2004 Honda Rancher which uses a 'Hondamatic' transmission. It has a 9 piston variable displacement pump driving a 7 piston motor which has now clocked over 8.600 hours using Delo 400 15-40 exclusively. An interesting note on Komatsu's (I have 3), even the final drives on my dozer specify engine motor oil. Everything here gets Delo 400, except two Detroit Diesels which use Delo 100. Obviously my Rancher was designed to use the engine oil for it's hydraulic transmission as they use a common unified sump.
 
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