DPete
Senior Member
To add to the confusion the local Cat dealer said they were using 15-40w as fill in their shop . We still have hyd oil in our machines, I don't know what's right??
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Engine Oil as Hydraulic Fluid??
- Thread starter Jordon
- Start date
Dwan Hall
Senior Member
My 1978 and 1979 Bob Cat 975's have been using Dello 15/40 for the last 30 years. The Sun-strand pumps seem to be getting a little week now a days. Could it be I have been using the wrong oil for the last 30 years and the effects are just starting to show?
In my dump truck I change the hydraulic system to ATF for the winter because the hydraulic oil thickens enough that the box will not come down if it is bellow 0 degrees F out.
In my dump truck I change the hydraulic system to ATF for the winter because the hydraulic oil thickens enough that the box will not come down if it is bellow 0 degrees F out.
cutting edge
Senior Member
Well...we were talking about hydraulics,but you brought wet multidisk brakes into the mix,which are hydro actuated,but do not run In the hydraulic oil. Deere brakes run in J20 spec oil.
Cat uses TDTO in the application you are talking about (as far as I remember).....
....and it's not that I "have gotten away with it".....many OEM's these dayys are spec'ing 10w30 or 15w40 as the oil used in their hydraulic systems,not me.
As for longevity, I have a customer with 2 Deere 844J's, 10w30 in the hydraulic system, one at 14000 hrs the other at 17000 hours,both run like a top,oil samples great throughout the machine history.
...but what do I know.
rare ss
Senior Member
the brake circuits have their own hyd oil supply for cooling in larger trucks they dont run in the diff oil like smaller machines hence are part of the hydraulic system
i agree with CAT793, in certain applications you will get away with it for the service life of the machine which is why the OEMs are reccommending it
we used to run alot of Hitachi excavators where i was working in the past which specifies a 46 hyd oil, if you ran 15W-40 it would be fine for around 5000hrs then would cannon the hyd pump due to lack on internal lube
cutting edge
Senior Member
Like I said,the excavators do not use "engine oil" (as we call it)....if you tried to use 15/40 up here,the pumps would last about 5 minutes.
The other machines I listed as using "engine oil" were designed for it.It's not about "getting away with it",It's about cutting down on operating costs (owner stock less oils).
It's also a warranty requirement.I challenge you to go and buy an 844K and swap out the oil for aw46 and let me know how that goes when the pumps detonate.
John C.
Senior Member
The additive package is what denotes engine oil and not the weight. I have run 15/40 engine oil in Komatsu excavators for a few years at one of the dealers I worked for. Those people only wanted one oil. At that time Komatsu specified either hydraulic or 10wt. engine oil
As to the water issue, hydraulic oil will allow water to drop out of emulsion over time while engine oil will carry it. Since water is bad in either case I don't see any plus or minus in that situation. Engine oil does have anti foaming agents and really high detergent packages to suspend carbon and particulate matter from air intake systems that hydraulic oil does not have. Those additives cost a lot of money which is the big difference between the oils.
So to summarize this, if you are running 10wt. hydraulic oil in your system you can sure run 10wt. engine oil with no problems. You can probably run a multi-grade engine oil also but why spend all that extra money.
As to the water issue, hydraulic oil will allow water to drop out of emulsion over time while engine oil will carry it. Since water is bad in either case I don't see any plus or minus in that situation. Engine oil does have anti foaming agents and really high detergent packages to suspend carbon and particulate matter from air intake systems that hydraulic oil does not have. Those additives cost a lot of money which is the big difference between the oils.
So to summarize this, if you are running 10wt. hydraulic oil in your system you can sure run 10wt. engine oil with no problems. You can probably run a multi-grade engine oil also but why spend all that extra money.
cutting edge
Senior Member
I dont know how things work down there,but HN46 and AW46 are more expensive than 10w30 up here in Canuckistan.
Correct on the TDTO - incorrect on the Wet Brakes. All CAT Truck have Oil Pumped through Wet brakes in Large Volume (140 LPM) but Low Pressure (25 Psi) varies on Model/Size. On the correct Oil this workes very well. We have maintained a Brake Pack on a 793C up to 25000 Hours and CAT purchased it back off us to see what they/we did right!!!
Wise Words - and I agree 100% do as the Manufacturer recommends. I am a Condition Monitor/Planner with a CAT Dealer at a Gold Mine. We have the usual 793 (at our peak there was 28 of them),D11R,854,16H,24H,994. We also now help the U/G with R2900G XTRA and AD-55B along with heaps od other varied CAT Machines. I would guess their must be 200-300 bits of CAT gear on site. Enough about me - What do you do?
MTI Mark
Well-Known Member
CAT793,
I am currently an account manager for MTI (Mining Technologies International) in eastern U.S.. I also have 9 plus years as a heavy equipment mechanic in an underground mine here in New york state. The rest of me work life has been as a mechanic, partsman, parts and service manager for Ford, GM, Jeep, and Navistar International dealerships, and as a papermill millwright.
I am currently an account manager for MTI (Mining Technologies International) in eastern U.S.. I also have 9 plus years as a heavy equipment mechanic in an underground mine here in New york state. The rest of me work life has been as a mechanic, partsman, parts and service manager for Ford, GM, Jeep, and Navistar International dealerships, and as a papermill millwright.
MTI Mark
Well-Known Member
CAT793,
See www.mti.ca . We manufacture low profile underground mining heavy equipment, and a few construction items such as bucket crushers for excavators and loaders, and a line of drills for excavators. LHDs, haulage trucks, jumbos, utility vehicles, ITH drills, etc. is our primary business. Our largest LHD is a 12yd, largest truck is 35 ton, small equipment when compared to Cat. We also manufacture cylinders and drill string material for ITH, Blasthole and Raisebore applications, although we do not build blasthole or raisebore machines.
Mining Technologies International is a combination of John Clark Inc (JCI), Drillex, Continuous Mining, LHD Cylinder, and a couple other companies under one roof.
See www.mti.ca . We manufacture low profile underground mining heavy equipment, and a few construction items such as bucket crushers for excavators and loaders, and a line of drills for excavators. LHDs, haulage trucks, jumbos, utility vehicles, ITH drills, etc. is our primary business. Our largest LHD is a 12yd, largest truck is 35 ton, small equipment when compared to Cat. We also manufacture cylinders and drill string material for ITH, Blasthole and Raisebore applications, although we do not build blasthole or raisebore machines.
Mining Technologies International is a combination of John Clark Inc (JCI), Drillex, Continuous Mining, LHD Cylinder, and a couple other companies under one roof.
RangerJake72
Member
I don't know the reasoning why, but I know on our JD 650J dozers (tractor/plows) we run 15w -40 oil for the engine, and the hydraulic system, the hydrostatic drive system uses some other type of oil (we are told never to open it, just check the sight glass) on our older dozers (550 & 650G) use regular hydraulic oil for the hydraulic system
Nige
Senior Member
First post, so please bear that in mind. My background's similar to Cat 793 - large open pit mining tools. Currently working for a mining company on an open-pit gold mine in the Caribbean, but for almost 20 years I worked for Cat dealers, and before that for other mining companies. Started back in the 70's on open-pit coal. We always joke that if you can't walk underneath it standing up it it's not worth working on ...
A few thoughts about oil......
Most manufacturers will give you options about what oils you can use in a certain compartment. The idea is to be able to reduce lube inventories by stocking less different grades while still covering your bases regarding compliance with the OEM oil specification.
For example in a current model D10T Tractor you have the option of using 9 (yes, that's right NINE) completely different types of oil in just the hydraulic system. Some are Cat's own oils, changed at 4000 hour intervals, others are commercial oils changed at 2000-hour intervals. A number of the oil options have direct relevance to the ambient temperature, and obviously you wouldn't use the same viscosity of oil in Northern Canada as you would in the desert in Western Australia. The list includes synthetics & mineral-based oils, specific hydraulic oils, engine oils, TDTO (TO-4) oils, & multi-purpose tractor oils. ALL are acceptable provided they fit the ambient temperature limits listed in the manual.
However for 24/7 mining operations we usually toss the ambient temperature recommendations out of the window, basically because they're designed for cold starting every morning and or course machines that work 24/7 allegedly never get cold. Even if they do it's generally the mechanics and not the operators who start them from cold and thus we can control how they are warmed up to make sure components don't get damaged. So as a rule we would go for an oil viscosity that might be heavier than suggested by the ambient temperature chart for the machine in question.
A point was made about oil-cooled brakes on Cat trucks. We have 777F & 789C both with oil-cooled brakes. This system is combined with the converter and dump body hoist. It needs a TDTO oil (or commercial TO-4) with friction modifiers because of the brake packs. We use a commercial SAE 10W TO-4 in these systems. However the Steering systems on the same trucks can get by with an SAE 10W hydraulic oil. Rather than have two 10W oils on site we opted to run all hydraulic systems on 10W TO-4 for ease of inventory and also to make sure that someone didn't dump a pure hydraulic oil in a brake cooling tank by mistake. Consequences would have been pretty dire.
Truck and Tractor final drives we run SAE60 FDAO oil (FD-1). It's really the only option for 24/7 mining operations as opposed to an SAE50 TO-4 which will not maintain a good enough lubrication film under high stress conditions. Weird thing we went from SAE50 to SAE30 TO-4 in motor grader tandems because the 50 was giving us brake issues.
A digression to Hitachi. I've seen a number of users switch from the Hitachi zinc-free Super EX HN 46 to other brands of hydraulic oil (non zinc-free) and go through total pain with pump failures. Until recently the Hitachi oil was the only zinc-free option on the market but now I hear there are others. One such option is Conoco Ecoterra HVI 46, but I have no experience of that oil. We're running 2 Hitachi EX-3600 machines here in addition to our Cat fleet.
One last thing that a lot of people forget is about oil cleanliness. If you can keep oil clean using regular oil sampling and a particle count to measure the ISO Code, and dialysis (kidney looping) when necessary you might be amazed at the increase in life you can get from components. The last decade has seen pretty much all the major manufacturers put in big efforts as regards contamination control.
A few thoughts about oil......
Most manufacturers will give you options about what oils you can use in a certain compartment. The idea is to be able to reduce lube inventories by stocking less different grades while still covering your bases regarding compliance with the OEM oil specification.
For example in a current model D10T Tractor you have the option of using 9 (yes, that's right NINE) completely different types of oil in just the hydraulic system. Some are Cat's own oils, changed at 4000 hour intervals, others are commercial oils changed at 2000-hour intervals. A number of the oil options have direct relevance to the ambient temperature, and obviously you wouldn't use the same viscosity of oil in Northern Canada as you would in the desert in Western Australia. The list includes synthetics & mineral-based oils, specific hydraulic oils, engine oils, TDTO (TO-4) oils, & multi-purpose tractor oils. ALL are acceptable provided they fit the ambient temperature limits listed in the manual.
However for 24/7 mining operations we usually toss the ambient temperature recommendations out of the window, basically because they're designed for cold starting every morning and or course machines that work 24/7 allegedly never get cold. Even if they do it's generally the mechanics and not the operators who start them from cold and thus we can control how they are warmed up to make sure components don't get damaged. So as a rule we would go for an oil viscosity that might be heavier than suggested by the ambient temperature chart for the machine in question.
A point was made about oil-cooled brakes on Cat trucks. We have 777F & 789C both with oil-cooled brakes. This system is combined with the converter and dump body hoist. It needs a TDTO oil (or commercial TO-4) with friction modifiers because of the brake packs. We use a commercial SAE 10W TO-4 in these systems. However the Steering systems on the same trucks can get by with an SAE 10W hydraulic oil. Rather than have two 10W oils on site we opted to run all hydraulic systems on 10W TO-4 for ease of inventory and also to make sure that someone didn't dump a pure hydraulic oil in a brake cooling tank by mistake. Consequences would have been pretty dire.
Truck and Tractor final drives we run SAE60 FDAO oil (FD-1). It's really the only option for 24/7 mining operations as opposed to an SAE50 TO-4 which will not maintain a good enough lubrication film under high stress conditions. Weird thing we went from SAE50 to SAE30 TO-4 in motor grader tandems because the 50 was giving us brake issues.
A digression to Hitachi. I've seen a number of users switch from the Hitachi zinc-free Super EX HN 46 to other brands of hydraulic oil (non zinc-free) and go through total pain with pump failures. Until recently the Hitachi oil was the only zinc-free option on the market but now I hear there are others. One such option is Conoco Ecoterra HVI 46, but I have no experience of that oil. We're running 2 Hitachi EX-3600 machines here in addition to our Cat fleet.
One last thing that a lot of people forget is about oil cleanliness. If you can keep oil clean using regular oil sampling and a particle count to measure the ISO Code, and dialysis (kidney looping) when necessary you might be amazed at the increase in life you can get from components. The last decade has seen pretty much all the major manufacturers put in big efforts as regards contamination control.
Hi Nige,
I assume this is a Typo.....
Good first Post mate!
You raise 2 interesting points:-
CAT make 2x (And more) 10W. 10W HYDO and 10 TDTO........sound SO simular but so fundamentally different!
And the longevity increase in 60W FDAO in conjunction with Kidney Looping. When I started at the current Mine in 1999 FDAO life in the arse end was 2000 Hours and it was Spent. Oxidation at 100 and dark shade of Brown. Advances in Oil Cleanliness, Filtration and Maintenance Practices have led to Oil living up to 6000-8000 Hours and stable (Honey Coloured).
I assume this is a Typo.....
The exact opposite is correct. Compartments with Discs/Plates do not want "Friction Modifiers" in the Add Pack. Friction Modifiers in CAT Oil are for curcuits with Variable Displacement Piston Pumps and the fine clearances in Slippers and Load on Cav Plates.
Good first Post mate!
You raise 2 interesting points:-
CAT make 2x (And more) 10W. 10W HYDO and 10 TDTO........sound SO simular but so fundamentally different!
And the longevity increase in 60W FDAO in conjunction with Kidney Looping. When I started at the current Mine in 1999 FDAO life in the arse end was 2000 Hours and it was Spent. Oxidation at 100 and dark shade of Brown. Advances in Oil Cleanliness, Filtration and Maintenance Practices have led to Oil living up to 6000-8000 Hours and stable (Honey Coloured).
Nige
Senior Member
G'Day mate. Should have read "without friction modifiers". I was trying to multi-task and not reading what I'd written ..........
In 789C rear ends we're looking at ISO of around 21/17 at worst when we get to PM and hook up the dialysis machine, maybe 1-2 points better than that after dialysis. I'm expecting the oil to live to 10,000 hours so that will give us just one oil change up the PCR @ 20,000 hours. Major cost saving, and the components should look good when we pull them so rebuild costs will be down.
I'd be interested to hear your experience of FDAO 60 in tractor final drives - not D11's I hasten to add. We're not getting them much past the recommended oil change of 2000 hours, maybe 3000 hours tops. A combination of oxidation and contamination. I'm thinking it's mostly due to the relatively small quantity of oil in them compared to a truck.
In 789C rear ends we're looking at ISO of around 21/17 at worst when we get to PM and hook up the dialysis machine, maybe 1-2 points better than that after dialysis. I'm expecting the oil to live to 10,000 hours so that will give us just one oil change up the PCR @ 20,000 hours. Major cost saving, and the components should look good when we pull them so rebuild costs will be down.
I'd be interested to hear your experience of FDAO 60 in tractor final drives - not D11's I hasten to add. We're not getting them much past the recommended oil change of 2000 hours, maybe 3000 hours tops. A combination of oxidation and contamination. I'm thinking it's mostly due to the relatively small quantity of oil in them compared to a truck.
Madaboutoil
New Member
Exactly
hookedondiesel
Senior Member
I'd like to add that my Massey 60 backhoe,( early 1980's) calls for Multigaurd engine oil,
SAE 10W as it's fluid. Tranny and hydraulics combined.
SAE 10W as it's fluid. Tranny and hydraulics combined.
The manuel on my 416C calls for 10W motor oil and explains different oils that can be used. In warmer climates it says you can use 15w40 as well. I called my Cat dealer once and asked these same questions , the answer I got was pretty much the bucket that says hydraulic oil is what you get when you ask for hydraulic oil. Ask for engine oil and you get CAT DEO. Never answered my question. My local NAPA carries a hydraulic oils that says univeral tractor hydraulic fluid , ok what is it AW32 , AW 36 , 10 W motor oil , its hydraulic oil. OK still no answer. I went back to my manuels and went to a Lubricant only dealer , I got an answer. They are a Chevron Dealer and sold me 10W motor oil , Chevron URSLA , and I'm happy ever after.
hookedondiesel
Senior Member
Thats good to know, Dickjr, Thanks.
So, in a nut shell, 10W motor oil can be used and or is the same as 10W Hydraulic oil.
Is this what you found out?
OzDozer
Senior Member
As an earthmoving and mining contractor for over 30 yrs, with up to 55 machines in the fleet (up to 103 tonnes), I ran multigrade engine oil in hydraulics for many years, and initially at Cat's insistence that it made sense to keep oil stock inventories low and to eliminate confusion amongst operators/service people as to which oil to use.
However, in the last 20-25 yrs, great advances have been made in oil technology and additives - and it's no longer a situation of "one-oil-does-it-all". There have been great strides in component design in that same time frame.
For an older machine, the oil choice is much simpler than it is for a newer machine, which often has very narrow oil parameters, very specific oil composition and additives requirements - and which often relies on computerised components for operation - which are often very sensitive to oil viscosity and additives.
The bottom line is, if you're running a fairly new machine (under 20 yrs old), you're well advised to contact the machine dealer or manufacturer before you make a decision to change to a different oil type than is currently being used, or to one that has been "recommended by a buddy". As CAT793 says, there are specific reasons why different oils are made - and one particular oil type may not have enough of the required additives to suit all applications.
However, in the last 20-25 yrs, great advances have been made in oil technology and additives - and it's no longer a situation of "one-oil-does-it-all". There have been great strides in component design in that same time frame.
For an older machine, the oil choice is much simpler than it is for a newer machine, which often has very narrow oil parameters, very specific oil composition and additives requirements - and which often relies on computerised components for operation - which are often very sensitive to oil viscosity and additives.
The bottom line is, if you're running a fairly new machine (under 20 yrs old), you're well advised to contact the machine dealer or manufacturer before you make a decision to change to a different oil type than is currently being used, or to one that has been "recommended by a buddy". As CAT793 says, there are specific reasons why different oils are made - and one particular oil type may not have enough of the required additives to suit all applications.