Driving fence posts with a mini?

[crusier_32]

I am looking to expand my operation into contract fencing. I am wondering if anyone has seen a mini drive fence posts. I do not own the machine yet but I am looking at a ~8000 lb machine. Either using a plate compactor with a flange welded to the bottom or a breaker. The plate compactor is the preferred solution due to the fact that it is half the money of a similar sized breaker.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, in my mind I would think it would work. But I can't find anyone who has ever done it. I kind of need to see it work before I open my check book.

Thanks,
Will

 

[Shenandoah]

Something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQbeobJsrIc

 

[KSSS]

I dont think a hoe pac is going to be very effective for that application especially in Mt. I think a breaker with a different engagement tool mounted in place of the breaker point would work better. I think your going to want something that resembles a hand post pounder that holds the post from bending mounted in place of the breaker tool. I am assuming your talking about driving steel fence posts here. You can find used breakers for 2-3K, I think a 200-300 pound hamer would be sufficient to drive a fence post. It would be faster and able to pound posts in almost any ground conditions. A hoe pac would struggle in rocky ground, and you could not use it for regular hoe pacing. The point could be replaced on the breaker and you could still use it for breaking rock or concrete.

 

[Oxbow]

I cannot remember the contractor's name, but they had a sizeable fencing contract out of Pinedale, WY last year that involved building game fencing along the highway. As I recall they were using both a hammer where necessary and a plate compactor on mini excavators to drive wooden (about 6" dia.) posts. This was a game fence so the posts were quite long. They were able to reach the top of the posts an drive with the plate compactor and used the hammer to pre open holes where necessary.

This is all based upon what I observed driving by numerous times, so I may be incorrect on the method, but that is the equipment that they were using.

 

[crusier_32]

Oxbow that is just the kind of info I was looking for. I need to be able to drive a 6" wood post. The length that I would be capable of driving is also a concern. Which had me leaning towards hoe pac. I have watched all the videos on YouTube, and in everyone of them the grass is green and it looks wet, plus they all seem to driving smaller posts then what I am talking about. What are the ground conditions around Pinedale? If memory serves I would think it would be fairly rocky. We don't have much for rocks here but it can get dry where the ground is like concrete.

 

[pickles]

We fenced a blueberry field with a kubota KX121-2 using a hoe pac with a ring welded to the bottom of the hoe pac for the post to sit in, takes some getting used to, doesnt take much to drive the post in crooked oh ya and the posts are 9'

 

[crusier_32]

We fenced a blueberry field with a kubota KX121-2 using a hoe pac with a ring welded to the bottom of the hoe pac for the post to sit in, takes some getting used to, doesnt take much to drive the post in crooked oh ya and the posts are 9'

What kind of ground conditions?

 

[Oxbow]

Cruiser_32, the ground where they were building fence along the highway had a thin layer of topsoil, then a grey clay-ish looking material, with only occasional rocks. I wish I had paid closer attention now, but the contractor was definetly a fencing contractor and well set up for the task. They had tracked skid steers for handling materials, and as I recall a pretty neat attachment for un-rolling wire as well as rolling up old wire. I believe they also had a post hole digger attachment, so they were set up for most circumstances.

 

[crusier_32]

Cruiser_32, the ground where they were building fence along the highway had a thin layer of topsoil, then a grey clay-ish looking material, with only occasional rocks. I wish I had paid closer attention now, but the contractor was definetly a fencing contractor and well set up for the task. They had tracked skid steers for handling materials, and as I recall a pretty neat attachment for un-rolling wire as well as rolling up old wire. I believe they also had a post hole digger attachment, so they were set up for most circumstances.

I don't suppose you remember what machine they were using do you?

 

[Oxbow]

It was a Bobcat and I don't recall the number, but it looked to be the equivalent of a Cat 307 which is about a 16,000 lb. machine. I suspect that the size of hoe pac that a larger machine could handle may be the determining factor.

 

[farmerleach]

In good conditions the vibratory post pounders seem to work good, in my experience. However when the conditions get rocky, or really hard, they aren't ideal. Mind you neither is a traditional pounder, but in adverse conditions my experience says traditional pounder. It seems that in rocky conditions no matter what its hard to keep the posts straight, and if the operator of the hoe or bobcat thats running the the vibrator unit gets to greedy when trying to straighten the post as he is driving it in, he's going to break posts. 4 years ago I was working along on a fencing project threw many varying conditions. Everything from nice loose topsoil to reclaimed gravel pit. I was using my trust old pounder and the other guy was using something very similar to a post vibe pounder mounted on a skid steer. http://www.postvibe.com/ In the hard stuff he just couldn't get them in the ground to the specified depth, 6 foot 6 inch posts into the ground to 4 foot. His solution? cut the tops with a chain saw, sometimes not much but on others, a foot and a half. He also had issues with getting the post straight, as his skid steer wasn't a vertical lift unit, so the vast majority of the posts he put in were leaning, not much but just enough so that if you looked at them you could tell they were off. The guy who was having this done, is one of those anal retentive types, where the posts have to be to depth, straight and the fence line has to be rifle shot straight, so needless to say he wasn't impressed and ran the guy off after the first day. So my 3 day project turned into a 7 day project. For reference i was using a Ezee-On pounder with a 9hp honda power system pulled behind a ts110 new holland. (ezee on is now farmking http://www.farm-king.com/Region-Canada/landscaping/post-driver/index.php ) It would pound posts into the gravel, it wasn't easy, fun or enjoyable. But I got it done. I have the hammer full of plate, I think its somewhere around 850 lbs.

I think that some of the problems the other guy had was perhaps he was trying to go to fast and work beyond what the machine was designed for. If he had some way of running a pilot hole it would have been much better than trying to drive posts directly. The unit in the second post that mounts to a hoe looks like a pretty slick unit. I still don't know how it would work in the really hard rocky stuff. Thats just my experience, the new ones maybe better.

 

[CRAFT]

I have been doing commercial Fence Contracts for close to 30yrs ….. We started out with tractor 3-pt hitch mounted pounders …. that later got modified to be mounted on the Skid-steer ….. thats where alot of problems began, the treated post quality started to deteriorate with the suppliers using Pine Beetle killed trees …. with pounding the posts would explode when hit.

We switched to Plate compactors for driving posts on both skids and excavators, the only posts that get broken now are due to an operator oops.

Our native soils are not friendly around here, full of rocks, hardpan blue clay ect. ….. What we all do is mount at least a 1" thick plate to the bottom of the compactor, on that plate we have a couple of diff size cups welded to the bottom (like a 4"diam x 6" long hw pipe and an 8"diam x 6" long) these are to simply keep control (steer) the posts, don't use to tight of a fit to the top of the posts, you want a bit of free play …… in addition to these we also have a "Probe" attached. This is a piece of 4130 shafting 3-4' long x 3-1/2" diam (usually can be found used at a recycler that scraps out old sawmills or ? )…… You simply vibrate the Probe down which makes the pilot hole first, that'll take care of any rocks or roots by pushing them out of the way or crushing through it (we have alot of rotten lava rock), if they are too big then you move the probe over a few inches and do it again, this also gives the post a plumb guild hole to follow, pull it out of the ground and vibrate the post in …. it only takes seconds to do. We are usually doing 40-50 posts 7-8' x 6" an hour in hard ground, depending on the spacing and your machines reach or the terrain sometimes you can do 3 posts with out moving the machine ….. it takes longer to move and line up the machine on crappy terrain than to drive posts.

There are quite a few contractors that use 5-6 tonne excavators using this method, I use my 312Cat with a Q/A plate bolted on top to a 6' wide Allied Skid-Pac from the Skid-steer "It's because It's what I already Had" …. one huge advantage of using the compactor over the breaker is the extended vertical reach you'll have due to the height/length of the breaker.

Good-Luck ! ….. cheers

 

[Oxbow]

Along the lines of what farmerleach said, years ago (1979-ish) we built a lot of fence for a ranch that I worked on in Northern Idaho. We used a traditional post pounder on the back af a Ford tractor with 3 point hitch. As the post was driven one had to inch the tractor ahead as the post driver would move farther away from the tractor as it was lowered.

One thing we found was that blunt ended posts were easier to keep straight than pointed posts, and they drove just about as easy. Evidently when small rocks were encountered the pointed posts would move off the rock laterally, while blunt end posts would either carry the rock down with it or the rock would work it's way to the side of the post. Either way it beat digging the holes by hand!

 

[farmerleach]

One thing we found was that blunt ended posts were easier to keep straight than pointed posts, and they drove just about as easy. Evidently when small rocks were encountered the pointed posts would move off the rock laterally, while blunt end posts would either carry the rock down with it or the rock would work it's way to the side of the post. Either way it beat digging the holes by hand!

Post quality is a huge thing. There is some crap out there these days. If you get posts that are pointed, make sure the point is in the centre of the post. If its off to one side they will cause you all kinds of grief. I have read studies that say pealed posts are stronger than doweled posts, but doweled posts are generally the ones that have the best point. It has something to do with when they dowel the post it creates a hard layer on the outside of the post, where the treating has difficulty penetrating. And that is part of the issue. Some of the posts that I have had break on me the treating only goes in a half inch at best. I remember as a kid there would be some kind of coloration in on most posts to at least an inch and a half if not more. And the treatment that they do use, is crap. rebuild some feedlot fence a few years back with posts that are guaranteed for 30 years. Now I'm only 32 and I put those posts in when I was about 25 and they have all been replaced. If you want warranty from these companies Good luck. even with receipts and a truck load of rotten broken crap posts in the manufactures parking lot, you'll get the to bad so sad, well sell you some new ones.

As Oxbow says, either way beats digging them in by hand. Best of luck to you.

 

[Randy88]

Done too much fencing over the years, to answer your question, anything works and most systems are fast, the real question you need to ask is, will anyone be happy with the results when your done, which narrows the possibilities considerably for pounding in posts. I've used an excavator bucket, skid steer bucket, crawler loader bucket and a whole lot more ways to try to put posts in.

This is just one persons opinion, bear it in mind, but I'd only pound posts with a dedicated post pounder, hydraulic one, I prefer on a skid steer, for several reasons. The first being it looks fun and easy to use an excavator, which it is, but its really hard to drive them in straight and true, you'll need a helper no matter how you do it anyhow, have them run the pounder and hold the post while another person drives the skid steer. If I had to do it again, which I no longer do and don't plan on doing again to any extent, I"d buy a pounder that had two way hydraulic leveling, with bubble levels on the uprights to the frame to tell when the pounder is level and the only thing the one running the skid steer had to do is line up lengthwise to the fence and nothing else.

I've pounded in a lot of railroad ties, wooden round posts, and more steel posts than I care to remember. It works best when its wet out, in the spring is ideal and as summer progresses, it gets harder to drive anything even steel posts, and yes you can mangle any steel post pounding it in to even a no rock area. If you plan on doing much fencing for hire, your first going to need to do a good job someone else thinks is good, not you and then work on speed after that, if you've not driven in or made much fence for hire, your list of equipment will get a lot longer shortly. I'm not sure what style of fencing your prepared to do and who for, but that will determine what equipment you need more than anything, best of luck.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . Slightly O/T but still on thumping posts. Just had a look around Youtube and can't believe the complexity (and probable cost) of some of those post drivers working of those lovely soft green paddocks. LOL.

Seriously though all that B/S is unnecessary and unwanted once you get into steep and gnarly country. A system of how to sight the line mark the spacings and set up the tractor is the key. Of course there is fencing and fencing I noticed some blokes with spirit levels even!!

I'm talking split hardwood posts, four barbs (nipple, navel, testicle and knee) and the brahmans are not gonna notice if the posts are leaning just a tad . . . the main thing is to get the bottom right and we go back down the line and straighten them with the blade or bucket.

Around here a 80-100hp four wheel drive tractor with a 4in1 is ideal and I can't imagine stuffing around with a skid or an excavator.

Having a good line cleared of course is handy and if its dry or in the stony country I rip the the post line and then pad it down with the tracks.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers

 

[crusier_32]

I am only interested in doing stock fences for ranchers and such. I have been fixing fence since I was a little kid, and build miles and miles of new fence. I am sure I could make some improvements on my system, but I would say that I can build fence about as fast anyone. My current setup is a 3-point wheat heart pounder with the side mast on a four wheel drive farm tractor. They have about a 600 lb head on them and adjustment for in and out plus all four directions. In these parts anyway the Wheat Hearts are the go to standard, with most of them on a trailer.

What my thinking is with an excavator is:
a: I need one anyhow for other work I have
b: I could track one almost anywhere, with out having to worry to much about flopping it on its side.
c: If I use a breaker I would be going from a 600lb hammer falling 6-8 times a minute to a 750-1000lb hammer hitting several hundred times a minute.
d: As some on pointed out I could set up once an reach at least 2 maybe 3 posts without having to track forward. On top of that my help on the ground could stand up the first post and while I am driving it they could have the second post up and waiting for me. Where with the Wheat Heart it takes someone to run the pounder on the ground all the time.

As far as it goes I don't know that I would need much more in the equipment department. I have a Kubuto rtv with wire rollers for unwinding wire. I also have a hydraulic reel for winding wire up that fits the same machine. To set posts out I could use my 950 with the forks on it, gross over kill but I have it and it is paid for. The only thing I really don't have at this point is the labor, which I am working on at this point.

The main problems I am seeing. Is tracking an excavator all over maybe be using it for something other then it was intended. It also sounds like I should be looking at a bigger machine that what I had intended. I was hoping to do this with a Cat 303.5, but talking with people and just my own gut feeling is I had better maybe looking for at least a 305 or larger. Which screws up my budget on this deal. I am either going to have generate some more funds or buy an older pice of machinery.

If I don't get this thing figured out soon I will probably mount the Wheat Heart on a skid steer with an adaptor to get started. I have some work lined up right now, and as I was saying earlier it gets hot and dry around here about the end of June. So time is ticking.

I appreciate all the comments and interest though. I have talked to probably half a dozen different people about this. Most of them said it could be done with a skid steer. But know one had heard of it done with an excavator before.

 

[Randy88]

Cruiser, with an excavator putting in the posts, and having someone set them up ahead of you, means you have to run the excavator off the side of the fence, and if your doing it yourself, one problem you'll have is the excavator operator has to line up everything from inside the cab, you'll need to use the bucket tilt function and also an auxiliary circuit to tilt the pounder the other way or you'll pound the posts in crooked, depending on the terrain your in. When we tried it, we ended up having one in the cab and another on the ground holding the posts and siting down the line and telling the operator which direction he needed to go to keep the posts going in straight in all directions. If your on level ground its easy to get the hang of it, but for every movement you make with the boom and stick, you change the post angle, if that makes sense, as you pound them in, your lowering the boom, which in turn changes the distance from the machine with the boom and stick, meaning you have to compensate with not only the boom, but stick and bucket/pounder angle all at the same time, not sure that came out right, but watch the videos and you'll see how the guy running the machine works the functions. With a skid steer or your tractor, the tractor and pounder stay fixed and only the pounder head moves up and down and once set you can pound the post in the distance you want and nothing changes for fore and aft movement, again I'm not sure that makes sense or not.

I'm not trying to talk you out of it, just pointing out the problems we had I didn't realize until we were actually doing it, I've seen the post drivers you have now, they are a very nice unit and if you'd mount it on a skid steer and had good help, you'd have a hard to beat system.

 

[crusier_32]

That is something I had also considered. With a mini you could use the front blade to level yourself to some degree, but yea I see the problem with every time you move the boom. I wonder though with a plate maybe you would not have to keep it lined up perfectly?

 

[Randy88]

Cruiser, it might work to a certain extent, but as you lower the boom to pound in the post, unless you have something attached to the bottom of the plate to center the post, and even if you do, you have to constantly keep moving to keep it level, or you pound in the posts crooked. If you don't have anything on the bottom of the plate to center the post, the post slips off the plate as you go down, again it depends on your position to the post, we kept the boom and stick as close to the machine as possible, that way it made it easier to sight everything we needed to from the cab, but it takes considerable patience and practice and some descent help on the ground to work with you till you get it somewhat figured out, my crew didn't like the learning curve and told me where I could put the excavator and it didn't matter who was running it.

We pounded in a lot of posts with just the skid steer bucket and that worked better than using the excavator, we'd bolt a short section of pipe on the bottom of the bucket, to center the post and keep it from slipping off and just use the boom function to pound them in, but it had no side tilt function on it, so the posts leaned on a side hill somewhat, and the person on the ground would just lean them back straight. A manual pounder was faster with two people, but after a few hours the skid steer wasn't tired and didn't need to rest, at the end of the day we'd put more steel posts in with the skid steer than by hand, and the crew was happier, the actual skid steer pounder was ideal but really slow on large wooden posts. We'd carry the posts in the skid steer bucket and just pull out the posts as we went, the weight also helped pound in the posts. Don't know if I helped at all or just confused you even more, anyhow good luck on whatever you decide, on a side note, I still love my excavators and do about anything with them except pound in fence posts.