DIFFERENT CAT DEALER PRICING?

[Welder Dave]

Cat has premium filters but video's like this one are skewed towards Cat. I had an OEM hyd. filter on my skid steer that was made by Donaldson and it had the bands around the pleats. Looking at the 6 filters shown at the beginning of the video it's obvious only 2 of them are similar to the Cat filter. Maybe the Donaldson that is the equivalent has the bands around the pleats? Just like to see apples to apples comparisons.

 

[John C.]

This discussion is really about due diligence in managing any type of equipment fleet. Due diligence is about facts, experience and data tracking. Some things from my experience with aftermarket involve considering risk and reward. Track chains are a good example. I've used multiple brands in different situations which have different risk factors. I can't say that aftermarket is as good and certainly not any better that OEM. I have had expensive problems with both OEM and after market. The difference in each was the service level when there was a failure. I've had seal failures on aftermarket tracks and things like rollers and idlers. The OEM had no problem covering the warranty terms. The after market only gives their condolences. Knowing that, if I'm considering a large dozer in high production, I'm not likely to consider the after market for obvious reasons. If I'm considering it on a standby unit with only a 60% utilization say, I'm going to do what I can to save money. If you are talking things like transmission cases, engine blocks and hydraulic valves, I'm probably not going to be inclined to try to save unless the numbers are astronomically different. I'm considering the savings as opposed to the risk of losing production should things not work out.

 

[Nige]

In mining I haven't seen aftermarket undercarriage do much more than 50-60% of OEM life. At one time Berco went heavily into the undercarriage market for D10/D11-size machines. They aren't in it any more, at least not in any noticeable way, because they got their fingers burned.

 

[Truck Shop]

Well I can say this, Without a doubt my shop drops/changes more oil than anyone on this forum, 68 tractors-105 refrigerated trailers. We have used at one time all the major brands when it
comes to oil filters, and we have had failures on every filter brand where the can is crimped to the main threaded body---Except One Brand--------We have never had a Cat filter fail in that
area.------It takes Exactly 1/4 mile to evacuate 10 gallons of oil on a C-15-fortunately the alarm went off and we never lost that engine and it was cold outside at the time. Lets see replace-
ment cost on a complete C-15--about $29,000-screw it we will spend the 2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 dollars more for the Cat filter. The filter that failed Fleet Guard.

 

[Nige]

How much has Cat lost out on customers going to IPD pistons when they would have normally bought from Cat.

In the grand scheme of things- 4/5 of 9/10 of fcuk all. Why.? Because they have far bigger fish to fry than to worry about some hobbyist out in the woods with his 30+ year old tractor.
As I said before, aftermarket can handle it and it helps everyone get a slice if the “parts pie”.

 

[Nige]

This discussion is really about due diligence in managing any type of equipment fleet. Due diligence is about facts, experience and data tracking. Some things from my experience with aftermarket involve considering risk and reward. Track chains are a good example. I've used multiple brands in different situations which have different risk factors. I can't say that aftermarket is as good and certainly not any better that OEM. I have had expensive problems with both OEM and after market. The difference in each was the service level when there was a failure. I've had seal failures on aftermarket tracks and things like rollers and idlers. The OEM had no problem covering the warranty terms. The after market only gives their condolences. Knowing that, if I'm considering a large dozer in high production, I'm not likely to consider the after market for obvious reasons. If I'm considering it on a standby unit with only a 60% utilization say, I'm going to do what I can to save money. If you are talking things like transmission cases, engine blocks and hydraulic valves, I'm probably not going to be inclined to try to save unless the numbers are astronomically different. I'm considering the savings as opposed to the risk of losing production should things not work out.

Well said.

 

[AllDodge]

Cat has premium filters but video's like this one are skewed towards Cat. I had an OEM hyd. filter on my skid steer that was made by Donaldson and it had the bands around the pleats. Looking at the 6 filters shown at the beginning of the video it's obvious only 2 of them are similar to the Cat filter. Maybe the Donaldson that is the equivalent has the bands around the pleats? Just like to see apples to apples comparisons.

Agree they are always skewed, noting the failed filters were as black as tar (and should have been changed 100K miles ago). Do admit CAT has a better filter and I do use some of them, but not in all locations.

Will also say, I have never had a failure do to a filter

 

[Kartal]

In mining I haven't seen aftermarket undercarriage do much more than 50-60% of OEM life. At one time Berco went heavily into the undercarriage market for D10/D11-size machines. They aren't in it any more, at least not in any noticeable way, because they got their fingers burned.

I don't have experience on D10/D11 size bulldozers. But we supply to Komatsu, Hitachi and O&K mining excavators (weight more than 200 ton models) undercarriage with one year-unlimited hours warranty, aftermarket (not Berco). Didn't face any problem.

 

[Nige]

Well I can say this, Without a doubt my shop drops/changes more oil than anyone on this forum, 68 tractors-105 refrigerated trailers. We have used at one time all the major brands when it
comes to oil filters, and we have had failures on every filter brand where the can is crimped to the main threaded body---Except One Brand--------We have never had a Cat filter fail in that
area.------It takes Exactly 1/4 mile to evacuate 10 gallons of oil on a C-15-fortunately the alarm went off and we never lost that engine and it was cold outside at the time. Lets see replace-
ment cost on a complete C-15--about $29,000-screw it we will spend the 2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 dollars more for the Cat filter. The filter that failed Fleet Guard.

Again the risk vs reward/cost saving argument. (I might be prepared to challenge you on engine oil usage. We go through about 15,000 gallons a month, but that's something for another day.)

When company has a fleet that numbers say 50-100 units and to overhaul a machine can cost in excess of $1m in parts, why would anyone even contemplate trying to save a handful of bucks on an aftermarket filter.?

 

[Welder Dave]

With the price of oil below $5/barrel, I wonder if Syncrude is going to be looking for less expensive parts for their 797 fleet? In my case the Cat rollers didn't justify the cost for the amount I use the machine. If the Cat rollers had been 20-25% more I would have considered them but at 50% more I could have bought 5 extra rollers (1 side) for the same cost as the Cat rollers.

I'm just saying that just because it's aftermarket doesn't automatically make it an inferior product.

 

[Nige]

Where does the $5 a barrel come from.?
Brent crude closed on Friday at $24.93 and WTI at $21.15.
Way down from where they were a month ago but nowhere near $5.
Just think what it's done for Syncrude's diesel fuel bill......

 

[Welder Dave]

I read it here yesterday for Western Canadian Select. A few years ago Syncrude was making over a million profit a day. I wonder how much oil Syncrude goes through in a month? They apparently have the largest concentration of mining machines in the world.

https://www.fr24news.com/n24/2020/0...l-oil-sands-production-in-western-canada.html

 

[Truck Shop]

Again the risk vs reward/cost saving argument. (I might be prepared to challenge you on engine oil usage. We go through about 15,000 gallons a month, but that's something for another day.)

When company has a fleet that numbers say 50-100 units and to overhaul a machine can cost in excess of $1m in parts, why would anyone even contemplate trying to save a handful of bucks on an aftermarket filter.?

On your scale-yes that's true-but it's hard to fit a 100 gallon oil pan on a class 8 truck.

 

[Truck Shop]

Where does the $5 a barrel come from.?
Brent crude closed on Friday at $24.93 and WTI at $21.15.
Way down from where they were a month ago but nowhere near $5.
Just think what it's done for Syncrude's diesel fuel bill......

5 dollar oil? Why that comes from the Beverly Hillbillies-Jed Clampett-up through the ground come bubbl'in crude-Black Gold/Texas Tea.

 

[Welder Dave]

Again the risk vs reward/cost saving argument. (I might be prepared to challenge you on engine oil usage. We go through about 15,000 gallons a month, but that's something for another day.)

When company has a fleet that numbers say 50-100 units and to overhaul a machine can cost in excess of $1m in parts, why would anyone even contemplate trying to save a handful of bucks on an aftermarket filter.?

Would this apply to Fleetguard filters for large Cummins engines in mining excavators?

 

[Nige]

Yes.

 

[CM1995]

All I will use is Cat filters on my Cat equipment - there better not be a red or orange filter on any Cat iron I own. Our equipment puts food on the table and just like a damn good mule you take care of it.

I could care less that a Cat filter costs $10-20 more than Baldwin or Wix. We change engine oil and filters at 250, engine oil, engine filters, hyd filters and hyd oil at 1K. Those parameters are set in stone for my company and not up for debate as far as I am concerned. We track hours on all the equipment weekly so we can plan services accordingly.

Ditto on the PSSR on UC. Put a new UC on our 953C the end of last year - the loader needed it and we needed a tax deduction, perfect combo. I could've saved $5-8k on the UC going aftermarket over Cat. However that loader had over 5K hours on the original chains. We had replaced one idler (shaft broke) one top roller and had one P&B turn.

5K hours on the original UC is pretty darn good for a 953C. It was a no brainer to go with Cat since we're going to run this loader to 10K hrs if everything else holds up. The loader is a support machine and the price of a new 953K is $200K.

The flip side of the argument is our 321DLCR need some new chains and sprocket segments the end of last year as well. This machine has 7K hours on it and is a mainline machine. The 321 is up in the next 2 years to be replaced before it reaches 9K hours or so. We got 7K hours out of the factory Cat UC which is pretty darn good as well.

I priced Cat and aftermarket and I could buy chains, sprocket segments and hardware for 1/2 the price of just the rails from Cat. If the Korean rails last 1/2 the time the Cat did that's 3.5K hours which leaves some meat on there when it becomes trade in time.

The 321 still gets Cat filters at every service.

When it comes to rubber tracks for our 279's there is no doubt I will go back with the OEM Bridgestones. 279-01 has 1400 hrs on it's factory set. The Bridgestone's are double the price of aftermarket however I've never in 17 years of running CTL's got 1400 hours out of a set of tracks.

 

[Welder Dave]

This is similar to why I went with aftermarket undercarriage for a relatively low use machine. If I was billing out 1500 hours a year with it might be a little different story.

"I priced Cat and aftermarket and I could buy chains, sprocket segments and hardware for 1/2 the price of just the rails from Cat. If the Korean rails last 1/2 the time the Cat did that's 3.5K hours which leaves some meat on there when it becomes trade in time."

 

[cuttin edge]

It's like buying tools. Not sure if Snap on is still king, but it was for most of my father's career. When people said it was too expensive, he said they were quality tools and warrantied for life. Other tools have life time warranty.... yes but you're not making money if you're always replacing it. now mind you he has been dead for ten years, and was not really heavily pulling wrenches at least 6 years before he passed, but he always said the cheap stuff is ok if you don't have to make a living with it. I am a believer of quality parts, but as Dave said as far as under belly stuff, if it's not a high production machine the after market stuff is fine

 

[Nige]

On your scale-yes that's true-but it's hard to fit a 100 gallon oil pan on a class 8 truck.

They're only about 50 gallons in truth. You mean to say with all your mechanical skills you couldn't fit a 3512 in a KW..?