D8R water in oil

[Andre van Greunen]

Hi Nige
How much water is allowed in transmission oil sampling. Percentage?

 

[Nige]

Usually the result is classed as positive or negative, sometimes I’ve seen it classed as a “trace”. What do you have.?

More importantly what type of coolant is the engine using and what are the numbers for sodium and/or potassium in the transmission analysis.?

 

[Andre van Greunen]

Water 0.02%
Sodium not indicated
Potasium not indicated
Glycol 0%
What is the spec for water in transmission oil?
I found water droplets on the clutchplates and under the clutchpistons on stripping.
Forward clutch burnt out.
Priority valve pressure at idle 348psi
High idle 377psi.
Pressures too low.
Will checkout the oilpump

 

[Andre van Greunen]

Can the priority valve pressure be adjusted at low idle?

 

[Nige]

As far as I'm concerned the allowable water in transmission samples should be zero. Is the analysis done by a dealer lab because usually Na & K numbers do usually appear in transmission samples. However NA & K can be part of a TO-4 additive package so I'm not sure how much the numbers would tell you.

Any sort of visible water when disassembling the transmission and you IMHO are looking for a coolant leak somewhere. Are there any visible traces of oil in the radiator.?

I suppose it's possible that water could be getting into the transmission externally via the breather or the filler. Have you actually seen the tractor yourself or did just the transmission come into your shop.?

 

[Andre van Greunen]

I did not see the dozer. The transmission was sent to me.
I agree with you, there should be no water traces its bad for friction plates.
I got a report on the pressures taken and its too low even at low idle 375psi should be 400psi minimum. Can it be adjusted on the transmission valve block valve in the bell crank housing.
Its a local oil distributor did the oil anylisis.

 

[John C.]

I've seen water in transmissions that either sit for a long time in a wet climate or that have been working and getting stuck in deep water. The other water source I've seen is on machines with winches on the back. The top plates and the drum seals are big places that let rain water or flood water in. If you are running the machine up to operating temperature once or twice a week it will flash off the condensation that seems to happen in any container in a wet climate.

 

[Andre van Greunen]

What is the allowable limit CAT spec for transmission, water in oil doing oil samples

 

[Nige]

I'm waiting for an answer from someone, but AFAIK - zero.

 

[Andre van Greunen]

Thats the way I see it too.
My experience on Allison, the friction plates material are bonded with a water based glue, if you get water in the oil the friction material come loose.
The oil sample result say 0.02% water in the oil, which is standard?
Not, I dont believe it

 

[Nige]

That’s why I asked if it was a Cat dealer lab doing the analysis, or someone else. The oil company lab will not have access to the Cat standards for water content, among others. So they report what seems “normal” to them, probably based on analysis from process plant machinery. What works as acceptable limits in a ball mill transmission will likely not work in a D8R transmission, but to the oil company lab they are both transmissions so they will most probably treat both of them exactly the same when it comes to interpreting the results.

I’m waiting for a call back to confirm my “zero” opinion above, just haven’t got it yet.

 

[Andre van Greunen]

Thaks for the prompt feedback bud...youre a star!!

 

[Andre van Greunen]

Did you know Willy Slow when you were in Zambia?

 

[Nige]

Did you know Willy Slow when you were in Zambia?

The name seems familiar but I can't put a face to it. Who did he work for back then.? It was over 20 years ago..!!

Got a reply to my question. OEM standard test produce either a "positive" or "negative" for water. No percent as per your analysis.
A Positive for water would produce an "Action Required" recommendation - in other words find out how the water is entering the component and fix the problem. Not "keep it under observation" but "Fix it now".
Certain friction materials in transmissions are very badly affected by water. I'm not sure if the D8R transmission has that material in any of the clutches.
Sometimes the friction material in question might only be in one clutch, it doesn't have to be in all of them.
Hope that helps.

 

[Andre van Greunen]

Willy used to work for Teichmann in Solwesi Kanshansi mine.
I new him quite well.
I just received news he passed away 2 weeks ago, heart attack 55 years old.

 

[Andre van Greunen]

Thanks for the reply on the water in oil.

 

[Nige]

Certain friction materials in transmissions are very badly affected by water. Sometimes the friction material in question might only be in one clutch, it doesn't have to be in all of them.

Rayflex & cellulose paper friction materials were the ones I was thinking about.
The possibility exists that one or more of the clutches in your D8R transmission has Rayflex friction material on the discs. Here's how to tell what material you have - provided that you have genuine OEM friction discs.......
The materials in the first two photos ARE affected by the presence of water.

Cellulose Paper - multi-parallel pattern

Rayflex - Sunburst pattern

Sintered Bronze - X-Groove pattern

F37 - Spiral/Circular Groove pattern

 

[Andre van Greunen]

Stripped transmission pump badly worn all 3 sections, lube, torque converter and transmission oil section. Scrap!!

 

[Nige]

Three questions now the transmission & pump are both stripped.

1. Did you find any Rayflex or Cellulose Paper friction material in any of the clutches.? (See post above with photos)
2. If the answer to Q1 is Yes and the Rayflex/CP material was in a clutch that failed, then water ingress could likely be a contributing factor as to why the clutch failed (pump condition aside)
3. After the transmission is all fixed and re-assembled in the machine - where and how is the water getting in.?

I would be looking closely at the transmission breather and filler cap for a start. Without a Serial Number I'm not sure if you have a "mushroom-type" breather down in the Hell Hole under the floor or a "pop-off" type breaker/relief valve mounted right at the top of the transmission fill tube a couple of inches below the filler cap. Post a Serial Number and I can confirm which type you have.

 

[Andre van Greunen]

8YX12220
F37 spiral/circular groove patern. Forward friction plates same as in reverse.
Only way to tell if its rainwater or engine coolant is a radiator pressure test. The water content was minute. As in the test report 0.02% no glycol present.
For me the failure was caused by low oil pressure causing the forward clutch to slip and eventually fail.