D3B 23Y 01245 Starting problem

[asleiman]

Gentlmen I am having problem with a D3 B 23Y . I have tried everything I know to check as far as cable and connections. cleaned all and appears to have no voltage drop.
battery checked at 941Cold Crancking at 13.25 Volts
if I put a battery booster on at start position with 225 amp. I can get it to start after few click at the switch.
it had those push button switch with rubber boots. I t came that way.
Can I get some suggestion.:beerchug:beerchug

 

[shopguy]

I had a 3B it was hell to start too, Have you had the starter checked?
BTW Welcome to forum

 

[asleiman]

Shopguy.

It is new starter that I installed few years back. did not use the machine for many reasons not the place.
I have a good battery group 31 in not 4 D
will try the 4 D and see . other wise I am pulling the starter off. it have to come from under this machine has large hydraulic pump that block the starter from being pulled from the top.
It just does not make sense so far tested the cables , changed terminal , cleaned ground connection etc.
noticed the solenoid gets warm after few tries.
I am suspecting the starting switch at the panel. it is push button type . wonder if it is corroded.

 

[lantraxco]

Shopguy.

It is new starter that I installed few years back. did not use the machine for many reasons not the place.
I have a good battery group 31 in not 4 D
will try the 4 D and see . other wise I am pulling the starter off. it have to come from under this machine has large hydraulic pump that block the starter from being pulled from the top.
It just does not make sense so far tested the cables , changed terminal , cleaned ground connection etc.
noticed the solenoid gets warm after few tries.
I am suspecting the starting switch at the panel. it is push button type . wonder if it is corroded.

If the solenoid is getting warm, then you most likely have a bad solenoid that is not getting power through to the starter motor. Have you carefully tried to cross the two big solenoid terminals with like an old screwdriver? MAKE SURE IT'S IN NEUTRAL and all your body parts are clear before you cross the terminals if you decide to try it.

 

[asleiman]

If the solenoid is getting warm, then you most likely have a bad solenoid that is not getting power through to the starter motor. Have you carefully tried to cross the two big solenoid terminals with like an old screwdriver? MAKE SURE IT'S IN NEUTRAL and all your body parts are clear before you cross the terminals if you decide to try it.

Hey lantraxco
Yes I did try it with a screw driver , and yes it will turn over . My diagnostic is the solenoid.
it is not the easiest machine to take the starter off from the side. The big hydraulic pump ( was option for a backhoe attachment ) is crowding the starter. I tired that before. it have to been done from the bottom. which tell to drive the machine on 8x10 railroad ties before attempting anything. Just in case if I have to take the starter off it be high to work under it. :salute

I wish there is a way to modify the battery box to accept 2 group 31 batteries ,
Gentlemen Thank you for your support

 

[Welder Dave]

My 931B has an 8D battery behind the seat. I would rather have 1 big battery than 2 small ones, less chance for corrosion and bad connections. Have you had the starter out before? I have the backhoe piston pump on my machine and the starter comes out the top but you may have to take one of solenoids off for clearance then turn the starter vertical. (Nippon Denso starter, 2 solenoids) Having someone underneath to hold it helps and I think I took the suction line or both off the pump for clearance as well.

 

[asleiman]

My 931B has an 8D battery behind the seat. I would rather have 1 big battery than 2 small ones, less chance for corrosion and bad connections. Have you had the starter out before? I have the backhoe piston pump on my machine and the starter comes out the top but you may have to take one of solenoids off for clearance then turn the starter vertical. (Nippon Denso starter, 2 solenoids) Having someone underneath to hold it helps and I think I took the suction line or both off the pump for clearance as well.

Hi welder Dave , The group 31 are not small each has rating of 950 CCA with 2 you always have almost 1800 CCA. Just my 2 cents worth
I have tried before to take the starter out from the side and the manual show it , in fact I am the one installed this starter. did not have the luck. I can get it to start and drive up on the 8X10 that will give clearance to go under it.
My old football knee injury just wont bent for tight spaces.

 

[asleiman]

Hi welder Dave , The group 31 are not small each has rating of 950 CCA with 2 you always have almost 1800 CCA. Just my 2 cents worth
I have tried before to take the starter out from the side and the manual show it , in fact I am the one installed this starter. did not have the luck. I can get it to start and drive up on the 8X10 that will give clearance to go under it.
My old football knee injury just wont bent for tight spaces.

Another Update ,
Put the 4 D battery , the starter acted the same way one click and nothing
when I I bypass it with a screw driver it spin but nit fast to start. There a potential that I they gave me a 24 volt starter
Started on taking off will be able to test it :drinkup

 

[asleiman]

Starter

My 931B has an 8D battery behind the seat. I would rather have 1 big battery than 2 small ones, less chance for corrosion and bad connections. Have you had the starter out before? I have the backhoe piston pump on my machine and the starter comes out the top but you may have to take one of solenoids off for clearance then turn the starter vertical. (Nippon Denso starter, 2 solenoids) Having someone underneath to hold it helps and I think I took the suction line or both off the pump for clearance as well.

Welder Dave ,

I must have the tightest spot to put a starter. it is a night mare . I removed rock covers , left lift cylinder , engine support. well that got me to the bolts the starter is loose in side. I think will have to remove the hydraulic plumbing , and hoses.
I think the problem that is not grounded properly at the bolts. I may make an extra cable from the starter to frame to insure starter grounding.:drinkup

 

[asleiman]

Gentlemen ,

I have done a lot research on the D3 B machine starting problem. one common issue that surfaced is the fact that the starter need to be grounded . Cat has a ground from battery to the frame and ground going from the flywheel housing to the frame.
it seem that is not enough and some how loosing amp required to start the starter. suggestion is make an additional ground from starter blots to the frame.

 

[Dutchcat]

If you have a bad ground you can measure a voltage difference (no more than 0,5 volts difference allowed) between the negative battery terminal and the starterground. Did you hand crank the engine to make Sure it isnt the engine or a parasitic load that wont allow it to start?


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

 

[asleiman]

As I stated above I could not find a ground from the starter. The best I can figure out is the previous owner had rewired few things. F

1- The kill switch it is not active and the starter push button is wired directly to the starter
2- the starter switch at the dash is a live all the time.
3- the starter mounting bolts do not have any ground
4- this a new starter and it should act this way we tried the big 4 D battery with a booster it made no diffrence.
this is today update

 

[Dutchcat]

Did you hooked up the starter to a battery when you had it out


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

 

[asleiman]

Coming up next

I will start tomorrow, took me a while to get it out
Also found part of the problem, I put a gasket on it with silicon gasket that Iam sure did isolate the starter

 

[Dutchcat]

I think papergasket would do the same, the bolts should have enough grounding capability when their contactpoints are Free from paint etc


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

 

[asleiman]

Hi Dutchcat,

I Performed this Test:
1- hooked up jumper cable a battery with (975 CCA )
2- positive to solenoid big bolt
3- negative to ground
4- took another cable one end to mag switch the other end to positive cable
it performed as it should , the Solenoid kicked out, starter motor spin

Observation: 1- The starter spin slow to me )
2- The Solenoid got warm

 

[lantraxco]

Hi Dutchcat,

I Performed this Test:
1- hooked up jumper cable a battery with (975 CCA )
2- positive to solenoid big bolt
3- negative to ground
4- took another cable one end to mag switch the other end to positive cable
it performed as it should , the Solenoid kicked out, starter motor spin

Observation: 1- The starter spin slow to me )
2- The Solenoid got warm

Hie thyself to ye old starter shop for an opinion I say.....

 

[Dutchcat]

Think you should get it benchtested, or just open up the solenoid, there should be Some big relay like contactpoints in there maybe Some corrosion on it


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk

 

[asleiman]

Hey Dutchcat ,

you are right ,
planing trip to the shop in the morning , will open both solenoid and motor. my guess after seen how it spin it must corrosion

 

[asleiman]

Just up date,
all the brushes looked like new and the internal
we tested the starter at the shop, the Solenoid did not test well , while the motor tested well . it was as simple as putting the positive on the big bolts on the starter to test the motor.
We changed the Solenoid , tested both and it worked as suppose .
Now back to reinstalling..