Cold weather operation

[Balzomedic]

I have a D6C with a D333 engine. When it gets real cold outside it sure has a hard time starting. Turn on the glow plugs for 3 minutes and use some ether and after several attempts it finally starts but runs real rough for a while. Don't know whether its my glow plugs or whether I should get a block heater. My thinking is it can't be good for the engine to run cold and rough like that, but a cat mechanic I met told me he's never seen a block heater on one here in Oklahoma. So my first question is what does everyone think? Should I find a way somehow to warm the engine or should i suspect that my glow plugs are bad since it starts great in cold weather? My second question is where would I find a block heater if that is the solution?

 

[tripper_174]

I had a D6C up in northern Manitoba where it can get chilly at times. It would always start at -25 C after sitting overnight. Once it got colder than that I would plug it in. Cat as well as numerous jobbers can supply you with a circulating heater that does the trick and are pretty easy to install. I always had an arctic type oil such as 0W 40 which makes a world of difference. Might be overkill for your part of the world.

Ether and glow plugs don't mix. I'm guessing your glow plugs aren't working or you'd have found out the hard way when squirting ether onto those hot glow plugs. Good luck with it!

 

[trukfan]

Someone makes an oil pan heater that magnetically attaches to the pan, and then you plug it in like a regular block heater. I don't know if that would work, or if you can even access the oil pan without a whole lot of hassle. Otherwise, you may be able to get a heavy duty 10W-30 diesel engine oil for it. We get ours from our local co-op, and run that in the tractors in the winter months. Otherwise we run 15W-40 the rest of the year. Unless dozer engine blocks are different than ag tractors, all you should need to do is find the freeze plug(s) that are easily accessible. All our block heaters replace 2 freeze plugs with a different plug with a heating element in the middle of it. I don't see why CAT couldn't provide you with one. Other equipment must use that engine also, in less than warm enviroments, and I can't see Cat not having any type of block heater for it for use in those climates.

 

[ILLICEMAN]

I can,t beleave it would get that cold on okla.Try a little lighter engine oil for easeir turn over.Really sounds like a little work on enjectors might help.

 

[DPete]

Like Tripper said starting fluid and glow plugs don't mix, my guess would be fresh glow plugs would make a big difference also you can test the harness leads with a 24V test light to be sure all plugs are getting heated

 

[Balzomedic]

Thanks for the advice guys. Yeah oklahoma isnt all that cold, I think the average temp in january is only in the 20's, with the record being -27. Ill have to test out those glow plugs.

 

[PAcattech]

Ether and glow plugs don't mix. I'm guessing your glow plugs aren't working or you'd have found out the hard way when squirting ether onto those hot glow plugs. Good luck with it!

Guys using starting fluid on an older precombustion chamber Cat engine such as is in Balzomedic's D6 poses absolutly no problem The starting fluid never comes into contact with the glow plug .The problem is with air intake heater (type glow plugs) spray starting fluid in them look out craps gonna fly. but I do agree Check your glow plugs Ill bet the wire that connects to them at the back of the valve cover is broken at the connector . your D6 should start well at 20 if plugs are working unless you have other problem such as low compression .

 

[D6c10K]

Never thought about ether causing a problem with glow plugs, but I can see how you'd get pre-ignition. So, since the glow plugs on a D6c turn on while cranking (whether you preheated them or not) should ether never be used?

 

[D6c10K]

Looks like PAcattech answered my question before I could ask it....(my D6c is a pre-cup 3306)

Funny thing about my glow plugs...if one goes bad instead of just creating an open-circuit the dang things will dead short and pop the circuit breaker...go figure.

Thought about starting my D6 today to push snow (got about 16" yesterday)...the temperature was about 0° F this morning. How long should the glow plugs be heated at that temp?

 

[swampdog]

I used to live in southern Kansas not far from the Oklahoma line. People there laughed at the cord hanging out of the front of my car that I'd brought down from Canada. They joked about it being an electric car.

One way to tell if the glow plugs are working is to watch the amp gauge in the instrument panel. When you use the glow plugs, the needle should drop about half way between the middle and the far left side of the gauge. At least that's the way it is on my 3406. If one or two are burnt, it won't drop as far. If you know the machine and how much current the glow plugs draw, that's an easy way to tell if all or most of the glow plugs are working.

If you want to install an engine heater, the circulating heaters that fit into a hose are relatively easy to install.

 

[tripper_174]

Well PA, as Tim Wilson sings, "I Might be Wrong", but pretty sure that damage from ether injected as it's drawn into the intake and onto the glow plug isn't a good thing. I've seen things like cracked rings, blown intake manifold gaskets and so on from using it. I don't ever use ether under any circumstances any more. I prefer to have all systems going properly including glow plugs, block, pan, circulating, propane or diesel engine heaters working. The old stuff such as 12E Cats, 48 A's and the like could handle almost any kind of mistreatment. The newer stuff just doesn't seem to like that.
Just my opinion but I'd sure like to hear why you think it's ok. I haven't learned a darn thing today so might just be the time!

 

[John C.]

In the Cat glow plugs we used to figure about 7 amps per plug. That used to figure out at around 40 amps. I checked individual plugs with an ohm meter. As I recall if they were bad they usually shorted through. There would be no resistance at all. A good one should have some resistance but I don't remember how much.

It was pretty common to lose one and I usually didn't change them in sets.

Good Luck!

 

[PAcattech]

Tripper you need to read what I said again your pretty much saying the same thing I did balzomedic's D6C is and older machine with precombustion chambers just as the 12E you refered to. starting fluid sprayed into the intake on these older machines never comes into contact with the glow plugs . the glow plugs in precombustion chamber engines basicly begins to burn the diesel fuel being injected the air ether mix never contact glow plugs in these types of engines.
I also said that

The problem is with air intake heater (type glow plugs) spray starting fluid in them look out craps gonna fly.

"craps gonna fly" is a very bad thing

I completely agree with you that the other things you list are great and should work I can also tell you after 25 years on working on Cats I have never seen starting fluid used CORRECTY cause any engine problem . I can also add that almost every machine my dealership sells is equiped with an ether injection system factory installed they are controlled by the engine computer when they inject starting fluid you cant even tell its being injected . Basicly heres my oppion starting fluid used sparing IN a CAT is ok and NEVER be used if your machine has air intake heater type glow plug if anyone is not sure if there machine has air intake heater dont use starting fluid

 

[tctractors]

Power Draw.

The Power draw on the Heater (glow ) plugs is 5 amps per plug, so a 4cylinder engine like 3304 Cat will show a 20 amp drop on the amp meter, a 6 cylinder engine will show a 30 amp drop, often when the trip fuse pops out the heater rail wire/s are a good place to start looking for trouble, on the Ether question, Cat fitted this starting option even to the High Drives on the D.I. engines so it cannot be a snag if it is used in the correct method, the engine should start with just the use of the heater plugs but a lot depends on motor conditon on a good day above freezing, cranking speed etc, parking the tractor out of the chill wind is always a good move,but I dont want to tell you crap you already know.

Best of luck tctractors

 

[tripper_174]

Good explanation PA, thanks! Does it ever get cold enough there for ether to be required?

 

[D6B_dude]

Hi
I'm new to this forum, but it looks to bee an great please too learn about machines.
I just bought me a D6B. What sort of cold starting aid can I find on it?

Sorry about my bad language skills

Thanks for any response
Joern

 

[WesternStar]

Hopefully someone else who knows more than I do can set us all straight on the situation, but I have always been told not to use the glow plugs for more than 15-20 seconds at a time. Then you would try to crank it. Repeat if necessary. I was under the impression that keeping them on for something such as 3 minutes could damage them.

 

[taggmann]

workin' from memory but I think the instruction plate on my 67 d5 says; 60and below 1 min 40+- 2 min 30 and below 3 min plus either? not sure but I think I am close. don't know if holding excessively will hurt the plugs but It will pop the dash breaker. by the way how much are new glow plugs? Oh and don't use either with a man heater .my brother did it on a farm tractor when he was younger and even dumber. sent the precleaner into orbit and caught the element on fire (smoke and ash into the intake not good)

 

[Tinkerer]

I spent a lot of years on dirt spreads in the winter. I quickly learned that by watching other operators starting dozers with glow plugs not one of them ever held them more than 20 or 30 seconds before trying to start them. That quickly defeated the glow plugs . Especially on the older D8s and D9s. I always looked at my watch while holding the glow plug switch until I hit the starter switch. It wasn't long and I didn't need a watch to know how long to hold the switch. The other thing I found was to not have the throttle wide open. That seemed to flood the engine until all the cylinders were firing. I also held the glow plugs on until after the engine started and was running smoothly. I never in all that time saw a piece of equipment I was running have to have the glow plugs replaced when I used that method.

 

[swampdog]

Hopefully someone else who knows more than I do can set us all straight on the situation, but I have always been told not to use the glow plugs for more than 15-20 seconds at a time. Then you would try to crank it. Repeat if necessary. I was under the impression that keeping them on for something such as 3 minutes could damage them.

Fifteen or twenty seconds may work well if it is not very cold out. But the engine will struggle a lot less to start if one uses the glow plugs a little longer in colder weather. A minute or so usually works well in below freezing temps. I'd be curious to know what Cat says about applying the glow plugs for two or three minutes.