Caterpillar Undercarriage Recall?

[LanceNE]

Keep hearing from numerous people through-out the country that have had Caterpillar undercarriage failures with both the CTL and MTL's. Lots being written right now about how Caterpillar is distancing itself from the MTL due to all the issues.....but a very strong point needs to be stated that Caterpillar repeatedly has said they were the underlying factor in the new design on the MTL C models. And, when the MTL's came out.....Caterpillar stressed they were the second coming or better than sliced bread. Amazing how a company can have such high expectations and then turn their back on the people they sold this undercarriage too. I think it is also pretty evident when they started abandoning ship on the MTL's, they hastily started manufacturing the CTL undercarriage. Heard many contractors here say the problems on the CTL's, we personally had a Cat rep say to us they knew that there were issues but still manufactured them thinking they could fix them on the go. Blah, blahbublah.... sorry for the rant.

Here is my question, - with so many issues by customers through-out the country in all types of terrains - has Caterpillar formally come out with a recall for these undercarriage systems? I can imagine if Toyota had wheels falling off of them like Cat has tracks, there would be a few lawyers involved in this process. I've been around machinery my whole life and understand that things don't always go smoothly, but when a company like Caterpillar knows there are issues, sells the machines anyway and then blames the customer.... tends to get under my skin.

 

[John C.]

If you have issues with these machines, please show us the specifics. Blanket rumors do nothing for anybody and just sound like you are trying to run down a brand. I've not heard any Cat rep or even of any Cat rep that runs his own brand down with stupid blanket statements. It's usually the other way around. They will tell why you shouldn't consider anything else.

The issues I've seen with the MTLs are nothing new and anyone that has run them for any time just figures that is part of operating them. I've never had anything to do with CTLs yet.

 

[pafarmer]

The answer would be "NO" !!! CAT has done nothing for the end customer in regards to this specfic issue. My CAT dealer insisted nothing was wrong with the design and it was something I was doing to toss the track. So much for CAT CTL.... JD CTL's now grace all of my job sites... I am more than happy with all of my JD CTL's..........

 

[KSSS]

(The issues I've seen with the MTLs are nothing new and anyone that has run them for any time just figures that is part of operating them. I've never had anything to do with CTLs yet. Quote)

I dont and never owned a CAT MTL or CTL, but it does appear that the CTL's have a derailing issue. There are several on this board that have them and posted about it. Also stating that CAT has used different combinations to fix it with varying success. So CAT apparently accepts that they have a problem. How wide spread I don't know, but certainly there is some issues with it.

The MTL is a different issue. As quoted above, simply because the issues are nothing new doesn't mean owners should have to accept poor engineering and even worse product support on a very weak product. The amount of money spent on keeping these things working must be horrendous. I honestly don't know how the majority of owners can make enough with them to justify running them.

 

[LanceNE]

These are not blanket rumors. Caterpillar rep in front of myself, my business partner, and 2 local Cat employees, stated (while discussing why the CTL tracks seem to come off easily and even local mechanics are baffled at the engineering design that would allow this to happen) that Cat engineers knew about the issue during production but thought it would be limited and something they could fix on the go. I do understand that logic. But, what irritates me extremely is how many of us have been told that there was not an issue and that our driving and terrain was the problem, when in fact it was known by Caterpillar that this could possibly be an issue. As far as accepting MTL massive failures? Are you kidding me? Maybe Caterpillar should point out the high cost of operating the MTL's and see just how many of those they will sell. The fact is, that was not at all in the conversation when the MTL's were sold to us. Broken axles, broken idlers, hub bolts that did not stay in and broke, all on new machines.
You can call it bashing a line, but that is hardly the case. I've stated plenty positives about Cat skid steers, but the facts are if the tracks come off, or the operating costs break you, the positives are irrevelant.
You stated you never heard Cat employees say a negative about the company. Well, I'll give credit to the ones I've dealt with, they are honest. In fact, the first time I heard about Cat blaming the customer first was from a present Cat employee. There was supposedly a shake up in Cat a few years ago to address this problem. And, again, from a Cat employee, the whole idea on a recall on the undercarriages. It was stated that Cat will eventually fix the problem, but holding true to their past nature of first blaming the customer and then fixing the problem 4-5 years later. I have been also critical of JD, ASV and to Bobcat to a little degree. (No machines are perfect). But, in my limited experience (I'm sure others have had contrary) these companies haven't seen the advantage of blaming the customer first.

 

[John C.]

Again, if you have a problem show proof. There is a reason hearsay is not allowed in a court of law. If you have a machine out of the track take photos and explain what went wrong. If there is a product recall, please state the name and numbers and let us all know. I'm sure we will all support you.

i'm quite sure others will support what I'm saying and attest to my sincerity. It doesn't matter who manufactured the machine to me, make unsupported statements in a public forum and I'll call you out every time.

Right now all I hear is a troll with an axe to grind.

 

[Hendrik]

Again, if you have a problem show proof..

From what I can see the question is, if CAT is doing a recall of their undercarriages in their compact track loader line.
CAT uses the same design in their MTL line as ASV/Terex do, high maintenance but able to do things that wheeled skids can't.
The CTL is another story but advertised as being the heavy duty cousin of the MTL and should do better....in theory.
I don't think this is yellow puss bashing but someone asking whether the design is being improved and a company standing by their product.

 

[rare ss]

on the subject of product recalls you must apply "the formula" (any fight club fans? )

on the subject of rubbishing CAT i've worked with former CAT dealer mech's and its drummed in from a high level to never bad month the brand to the point of written warnings being handed out

 

[LanceNE]

Yes, that is what us Caterpillar customers are: trolls.
Court of law (I thought this was a forum but do you know of something else in the works)? So, you are telling me that Regional Cat Reps, local Cat mechanics, Cat salesman, are all going to perjure themselves on what they've said and seen? How about former Cat employees? Proof? Caterpillars own mechanic came out for 5 hours with a service truck, took notes that the derailing on a modified CTL had nothing to do with the driver or terrain. I don't know about the mechanics you've been around, but the ones I know would not "fall on the sword" for any company and lie in a court of law. I'm sure he is a troll also.
If you are uninformed on the MTL issues, I suggest you read further on postings by other "trolls" and other equipment forums.
I cannot testify to the ASV/Terex issues as I am not an ASV owner.
I was an uninformed customer before and entrusted Caterpillar on equipment decisions. That will never happen again and I hope that people viewing these forums understand the issues before they purchase a machine.
Maybe to help you understand what the original questions was - I was asking if anyone knew of a recall. I would imagine with the issues that C model undercarriages are having the D model skid steers from Caterpillar will have some major changes on their undercarriages...at least one would hope.

 

[Digdeep]

Lance-I can understand your frustrations, and I hope they get rectified. I’m not a big fan of CAT MTLs as anyone can tell from previous posts of mine (too heavy, weight and balance screwed up, general dealer service practices not tailored to compact equipment, etc.). “I have heard” that CAT is sourcing triple flange idlers direct from Berco to improve their machine’s ability on slopes. Whether that climbs to a level of a defect in the machine, CAT will have to decide. I worked for a Bobcat dealer for years, and there were times when we “heard things”, or “thought something was up”, but as dealer personnel we typically didn’t have all the details until the “Mother ship” announced it, and it mostly differed at least slightly from what we thought.

I do find it extremely implausible that CAT would be hiding a widespread problem. For sure every machine has its weaknesses, and I’m certain that OEMs know about them. But it would be impossible for any company to make a perfect machine that worked perfectly in all conditions.

One thing is for sure, CAT has been in business since 1925, is the only equipment company ranked in the top 100 global brands and will have revenues that exceed $50 billion in 2011 (far ahead the next competitor Komatsu). They did not get there by being subversive or avoiding doing the right thing.

 

[LanceNE]

Digdeep,
I would speculate that a lot of the problem is due to a breakdown in the chain of information from the top down. I don't know any dealers that would intentionally sell a machine with problems. Obviously one dissatisfied customer bears more weight than 10 happy ones. On the CTL derailing, I am for sure that the dealers did not know of the issues. This was over 2 years ago, Caterpillars response to the dealer was no one was having problems. When pushed, they did say there was a double idler that might alleviate the problems and then an embarassed local dealer came out and told me these fixes were 6 months back ordered. There was a problem, I don't think they were intentionally trying to hide it, but Caterpillar said instead of admitting the problem decided to put the blame on the customer. That is a wrong move for any company.
As far as Cat being a large global company, as we all know this can change. I had a family member who spent 25+ yrs working for IBM in its heyday. He stated many times when IBM fell from grace the reason was they became arrogant. Hopefully Caterpillar understands these trends.

 

[LanceNE]

One thing I need to make clear and seems to be cloudy in this whole deal. The reason I hammer so hard on the Cat undercarriage is that I have very few complaints on the rest of the machine. There are little things here and there everybody can pick apart. The major things such as servicability, hydraulics, motor, accessibility have been ABOVE average. If they had not dropped the ball on the undercarriage, I would be singing the Cat fight song and be merry on my way! Hammering on the undercarriage is for #1 to let Cat know we as customers are a priority and what we say with experience needs to carry a lot of weight. #2 shut the hell up about blaming us and fix the stupid problem. If you want to go to a CTL that is fine, just make sure it works. If you want to modify the MTL to work on something other than snow, I'm for that too. I don't believe either one of the systems are too flawed and that if they had been tested under various rigorous conditions .....but then again I'm sure their bean counters limit the amount of testing and things fall through the cracks.
And, the undercarriage problems are not like an air leak in the cab or some minor inconvenience, they are EXTREMELY expensive for us as customers.

 

[lgammon]

lance, i think that you should maybe review your choice of equipment before slamming the company so hard. you are using a fecon bull hog on a skid steer on rough terrain. i own a 277b and am vary happy with it. i use a bucket/forks/harley rake. i got about 2000 hours out of a set of tracks. that is fine for us. we also have a 953 and a 943. we use these machines for heavy stuff and the skid for trimming and the fine stuff. i think that most of the problems people have is when they ask a little skid steer to preform to much work. i think if you would look at putting a fecon bullhog on a 953 type machine you would like it alot better. it is better suited for the job. i am not saying that a 277/287/297 can't do it but i am saying that having one of those things on a skid, is at the edge of there operating range, and when you are at the edge you are going to have more problems and your operating cost will be alot more. it is the same as saying i have a ford ranger and i tow a 6000 pound machine behind it and the brakes are junk. when you should be towing with a f350. i know the cost of a 953 is in the 230,000 range and you are giving 60-80,000 for skids but keep in mind that the undercarriage is cheaper to replace on a 953.

 

[Hendrik]

The undercarriage issue is much the same in excavators/dozers/etc, some operators manage to look after the undercarriage and some tear it to pieces in a short time.
It is generally understood that the MTL undercarriage is not meant for idiots, start putting rocks through and it is gonna die, real quick.
Unfortunately it is only really meant for the best of operators, how can you change that design?

 

[LanceNE]

Ok - let me re-try this, leaving the emotion and past history out.
Undercarriage recall - my question here has to do with the fact that under some circumstances, such as the one we work in, these undercarriages are failing. The point that they were sold to do this is moot. What I want to know as a customer, what is going to be done, or if Caterpillar is going to walk away from having their skid steers work in these type of conditions. CTL's were sold and advertised to be the answer to the high maintenance cost of the MTL's in extreme conditions. We've known for 2 years now that these same conditions can cause fits with the tracks coming off, negating the advantages of the CTL in extreme conditions. I'm not here to promote another brand skid steer as I don't have the experience on how they deal in these same conditions.
Another point has arisen, that the application - forestry - that we are in is destroying these machines. I'll be the first one out there saying that what we do is not easy on any machine. But as I'm sure many of you are aware of through brochures and advertising, these machines (not just Caterpillar) are being promoted to do this line of work...period. A bullhog attachment runs anywhere from $20,000-30,000. Half the price of some skid steers. If any of these manufacturers feel that this line of work will adversely affect the longevity of their machines, they should not be promoting and selling said attachments. All of our attachments were purchased directly through Caterpillar and what I was told is they charge 15% to sell such attachments. You can see some frustration here when a company is profiting selling attachments and then saying these same attachments are destroying their equipment. Even when we've had representatives out and they have seen the work we do and the conditions and the affects on the skid steers.... the first thing they try to sell us is a new bullhog. Folks - you can't have it both ways.

 

[John C.]

To answer your question about Cat recalls. To my knowledge they have never recalled any machine or part. Their policy has always been to issue PIPs or Product Improvement Programs. They have done what are called factory campaigns to change something that is causing safety issues or premature failures of components and many times those are done at their expense. That is totally at their discretion. That is the same format that all other manufacturers that I have dealt with use. I have experienced buyouts of very bad Cat machines in the past where we traded defective machines into another type of machine for the application. I felt at the time that Cat was pretty generous on the re-financing of the debt for the machines that cost a whole lot more than a skid steer.

What you can do is make your case through your dealer asking for technical support. It is how they communicate the situation to the manufacturer that will help or hurt you. I don't know what a Bull Hog weighs and haven't ever seen one but I suspect it to be very heavy putting significant stain on the undercarriage of a skid steer. Did the dealer suggest to you that this would work or did you go to the dealer and tell them what you wanted? The answer to that will most likely determine how hard they work at solving your issues. If there are PIPs for your problems the dealer will already have been alerted. I'll can also tell you from personal experience that I've never seen rubber tracks used successfully in any kind of forestry application.

Finally it is my personal experience that you don't want to use the court of public opinion to solve your problem unless you have exhausted all other means. Don't take no from anyone who can't say yes, and when the person who can say yes says no, then consider the media. One last item, you only get to use the media once.

Good Luck!

 

[LanceNE]

John,
I think the salesman was saying recall and PIP a little interchangeably. The one machine we have has had quite a few PIP's and this was one of my major complaints. It had nearly 2 months of warranty work. Most of the time, the initial response was to blame it on the terrain or bullhog.....but it was kind of funny, in fact it was a day after I talked about it with them that the PIP came out that people were hauling dirt were having issues too. This 2 months was awfully hard for our company to recover and I did explain to Caterpillar that when we spend that kind of money for the brand, we shouldn't be the ones finding the flaws and especially that soon.
The bullhog is a trade name of Fecon. It is a masticating head and many of them are out there and I believe they are all roughly around the 2000lb range. Last I heard Caterpillar has their own line being manufactured by FAE. We have a Fecon, some dealers sell them, and quite a few dealers rent them out. It was one of my points when they mentioned it might be the Fecon causing problems, than they shouldn't be manufacturing and selling masticating heads. We use our Fecon about 1/4 of the time. It is mainly used for clean up of slash. One of our other machines, which doesn't run the Fecon, was the first to start having problems. I would not be one trying to sell a skid steer to run a masticating head full time all the time....the engine screams all the time, hydraulics are borderline and you are always fighting heating issues. You can do it, but... you will pay. The dealers I've been involved definitely try to sell these attachments and I've never heard of one to try and discourage a bullhog sale.
Yeah...believe it or not it isn't the rubber tracks and I would be fine replacing the rubber every 700-1000 hours if the rest of the undercarriage didn't have so many problems. I wish one of the manufacturers would come out with an all steel undercarriage and tracks for the skid steer which they felt was worth purchasing. Bobcat has one but the conversations I've had with them, they are saying their customers would rather replace tracks and such than add $20,000+ to a tracked skid steer price. I know SuperTrak from Florida has one for the Caterpillars, just haven't heard a whole lot about them.
Court of public opinion wasn't our first avenue for sure. The reality is, I've learned more off forums and Heavy Equipment Forum in particular than I've ever been able to get out of Caterpillar (I'm sure that is similar with other manufacturers too). A couple years ago when we first had issues with the CTL, we had no support from Caterpillar. It was on a forum where we started hearing of others having similar issues. Caterpillar has had quite a few letters but gauging from others in the forum also, this is going to be a fix over time.
One last thing about the 2 types of undercarriages - if we were on dirt, no gravel or rocks....sand or on lawns, I don't know how you could go wrong with and MTL. They ride as good as it gets and it wouldn't be an issue with the plastic and other components if you aren't in rocks and such. That leaves the rest of needing a different type of undercarriage which the CTL's were supposed to be designed for. They need to go back to the drawing board and make those tracks stay on - then they will have a home run. I've been hard on Caterpillar like I said before - the rest of the machine is more than adequate and they need to vacate the policy of laying blame on the customer first.

 

[John C.]

Lance,
Great explanation of your issues. Now you are drawing people into the specifics of the problem and inviting discussion from others possibly suffering the same issues. I've never dealt with a CTL and know exactly nothing about the undercarriage. You have told me something I didn't know in a way that makes me want to know more. What is the failure mode? Are you moving forward and turning the tracks off or going in reverse and pulling the tracks off the front idlers?

I've been through exactly what you are going through and found my feelings to be pretty close to the same. The fact that there are PIPs out means that Cat knows there is a problem affecting more than one application. You need to keep running that fact under the sales force of the dealer that sold the machine to you. You also don't want to necessarily broadcast this issue to the world if you might want to sell the machine someday. I made that mistake big time on the mess I was involved in.

As far as the fact that you are the proving ground goes, it happens all the time from most all the manufacturers. New and improved almost always means prototype and untested. We can fault the manufacturers a lot of the time but engineers are never able to fully grasp all the ways a machine can be used. When early users come up with adaptations, they always illuminate the weak areas.

I'll be interested in hearing about your progress.

John C.

 

[LanceNE]

John,
Unfortunately, I've had more than one experience with the Cat CTL's. The first machine we had which was roughly 2 yrs ago, we were losing tracks almost once a day. Tracks came off both forward and backwards, but more moving forward. I would like to say it was all on slopes, but twice it was on flat ground. The last time with that machine it came off, I was raking trees and a cottonwood limb approx 6 inches in diameter slipped between the tracks and frame and popped the track off. This was in the dead of winter and I had the window open to specifically hear the telltale pop. What is ironic is this is when I was first hearing from Cat mechanics that the story I was hearing from Cat sales and such was not the same as what the mechanics were saying. When I first lost the track, talked to mechanic, told him the situation, it being a CTL, he laughed and said get used to it...this was a lot different from the sales division. After the last time it came off on flat ground, the machine was returned and I traded for another MTL. Fast forward a year later, MTL's had had issues on parts breaking (this is in a different area of the US with a dealer that was really unfamiliar with tracked skid steers). Regional Cat Rep insisted that there had been fixes and our first CTL had not been retrofitted correctly.....local dealer really was in it for the education part because they were not buying what they were hearing....so they sent out a CTL that had the double idlers and some guide modifications (which I'm not sure what they were). Track came off in the first hour on about a 5% slope, going down on a haul trail to a landing area. Local service rep came out, messed with it for about an hour and said to heck with it and had a service truck come out to follow me around. Next day, with the service truck in tow, the track came off either 2 or 3 times in a 4 hour period. Here is the explanation from the mechanic - with weight on the front of the skid steer (had a bullhog attached....which would be considerably less weight than a loaded bucket), the track wants to gap even when it was tightened to the full extent, way beyond recommended. That gap caused the derailing, not the terrain or bullhog. This test was done on roughly 5% slope....if you were turning and happened to catch any debris on the ground, the derailment was almost immediate. This has been over year ago when there was some talk about a narrower track, triple idlers and such being tested.....mechanic said and I will agree with him, that still doesn't test for the slack in the track and since I haven't heard of anyone using the narrower track and triple idlers being a home run, I'm thinking he was right.
I will also have to say I'm a firm believer, although it is not applied, all manufacturers no matter what color they are, to require their designers and engineers to be operators and mechanics first then be designers. Unfortunately, and Cat is not alone, the practicality of some of the designs is nil. Construction equipment is not alone, spent years welding, torching, modifying agricultural stuff too. The good ole days when they spent years in the field testing is long gone and we the customers are the guinea pigs. I do understand that new things means things are going to break...but the undercarriage issues have been so expensive and like the derailing, these are things I would have thought would be picked up during initial testing.
On a side note, I did rent and run a Bobcat T320 on the same terrain...partially to prove that I wasn't insane. About 80-100 hours were put on this machine with no loss of tracks. Not advocating purchasing Bobcat, just that with proper design you can have the tracks actually stay on......this is where I've gone on and on about how they have dropped the ball on the CTL's.
I don't spend near enough time studying them, but someone on the post here said they thought JD and Cat had the same undercarriage. If that is true, that explains a lot. Had many many hours in a JD 322 and 332 and them there tracks had the same issues.
Unfortunately, as far as a resale value on MTL's, at least from what they said on trade ins....Cat severely depreciated the machine because of the track system. Obviously another topic, but a point adding fuel to the flames (sell me a machine to do an application, fails miserably and then slam me on a trade in = one irritated customer).

 

[pafarmer]

All manufacturers have problems. Some more than others. Fact is, I have operated all types of equipment in my 35 years and I am here to tell just how amazing some of this equipment is. Mini Excavators, Tracked loaders, skidsteers etc............They have come a long way and continue to push the limits of modern engineering. I feel for CAT on this issue, but in the same respect I also feel that CAT should stand behind their products if the field is reporting an issue in significant numbers to justify it. I think it would be in their best long term business interest. With that being said, I wonder what the field data shows on the derailment issue. Only CAT has that particular data point, failre analysis reports, and corrective action of this particular issue. I work best with facts and data, without both we will end this thread. Only CAT can......... My .02

PS, My John Deere "D" series works great. Zero issue to date with 500 plus hours on the clock.