Caterpillar 12 grader engine is dead - please help?

[Entropy1]

The problem with my borescope is that I cannot manipulate it. It will hold a general shape when I bend it, then I can only push/pull it. It will not change directions (bend) while being pushed - at least not in a predictable fashion. The probe will snake up (buckle) when being pushed around a tight turn. It works great for inspecting straight sections (pipe, duct, etc). I had trouble feeding it through a 90 degree turn in the exhaust manifold. If I remove the precombustion chamber, it's a straight shot directly into the cylinders.

And for removing the precombustion chambers - the service manual says they're torqued to 200 ft-lbs upon installation. I'm assuming these have never been removed - but who knows? Should I use a breaker-bar, and apply steady torque? Or should I try a small impact gun? My gut tells me to not hit them with an impact. But occasionally an impact is the preferred tool. Any recommendations? I need to make sure my extraction bolt has enough engagement with the splines (when removing the retainer & chamber together - they're supposed to be removed separately. When removing both together, the extraction bolt sits higher above the chamber).

 

[Entropy1]

Another option is to keep searching for the proper tool kit, and follow the service manual's directions for proper dissassembly. . . . .

 

[Tugger2]

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/708257260844475/?ref=saved&referral_code=null&__tn__=!:D
Cross border shopping might be challenging ,here heres some cheap guts n feathers that was on Face book. I guess your best aproach is to see what you need first. Scrap is higher right now ,probably yank the remains of the engine out and scrap the rest and cover some costs.

 

[Entropy1]

A few years ago I drove up into Canada to shop for Case 310 parts. I had my 1-ton flat-bed truck and my 10k flat-bed equipment trailer. The Canadian border guard asked me if I had ever been fingerprinted. Strange question - right? So I told him yes, and he asked me when. I told him when I joined the US Military I was fingerprinted. He asked and when else? He was obviously fishing for a specific answer - that he already knew the answer to - but I was really puzzled. He was being blunt, condescending, and almost combative. Did he think I was a criminal? So I'm thinking to myself - I was fingerprinted by the police when I was in middle-school (all the school kids were), and I was also fingerprinted when I got my CCL (concealed weapons license) in Washington State, and that's it - three times in my entire life. So I told him, I got fingerprinted when I got my CCL. He immediately responded by saying, and do you have your concealed weapon on you now? I smiled and said that I knew I was coming to Canada today, so I went out of my way to intentionally leave my handgun & ammunition at home. He gave me the serious snake eye. I was sure he was going to pull me aside and search my vehicle, but he didn't - he let me go about my business. The Case 310 parts ended up being a bust, however the drive into Canada was very nice. North of the border is a giant valley going east-west. It's full of farms, neighborhoods, stores - mainly farmlands. The roads were in pretty good shape - considering how punishing the winters can be up there.

What bothers me most about that whole situation was that a foreign government knew that I was issued a Washington State CCL. Why does a foreign government have any business knowing that information? Seriously?

I'd make the drive up into Canada to get a D318 engine - if it's already pulled (because I can haul it myself). Unfortunately I do not have a truck & trailer large enough to pull a whole dozer (or a grader - I had to pay a guy to haul the grader home for me). If this dozer were more local, I'd be all over it. . . .

 

[Tugger2]

Yes i know how you feel . I crossed once to go to Seattle and pickup some undercarraige parts for a Terex dozer. It was a rush trip went down in the evening thru Blaine. The Border guard called me in and asked what the purpose of my trip was ,so i told him. He says that will be 10.00$ business crossing fee.?? I siad i only have a visa card and some Canadian cash. He held my wallet and id and sent me into Blaine to change some Canadian cash into US so i could give him a ten. Gave it to him and all was well . Sure felt like something weird was up. Been down lots of other times and never an issue.

 

[Entropy1]

https://www.cbp.gov/trade/basic-import-export/user-fee-table

Absolutely sounds fishy. Did he give you a receipt? I've never heard of a business crossing fee. That fee doesn't seem to be contained within the above link.

Seems like everyone is being shaken down these days.

 

[Tugger2]

This was 1986 ,something told me just give him cash n carry on. If it had been Canadian customs i would have questioned them

 

[Entropy1]

I placed a want-ad for a running D318 engine - hoping I might get lucky. I actually got a response.

It became clear after two e-mails that the guy was a scammer - just trying to take my money.

 

[Entropy1]

Still looking for a replacement D318. A guy in eastern Washington had a pair for sale (package deal - not a bad price). I messaged him. Five days later he messaged me back - but because I didn't respond within 45 minutes he sold the engines to someone else. Very strange. I suppose he thought I had one of those internet phones - with my face constantly glued to it. . . .

If I cannot procure a D318 this fall/winter, I will likely attempt a repower this spring. Thinking 350 cummins, or a big cam, or similar. I've got a friend with an EDM - the rest I should be able to do myself on the lathe/mill.

 

[OzDozer]

You're heading the wrong way, and going into a world of major additional cost and major headaches.

Despite your great fabrication skills that you've displayed with photos of items you've constructed and installed, changing to a different brand of engine in a Cat is going to cause you endless headscratching and multiple modifications, and more costs.

Several highly experienced contributors on previous pages have advised you against a repower with a different brand of engine. I can only concur with their experienced opinions - do not do it.

For starters, Cat do not take notice of any SAE standards, rules, or instructions. Cat are a law unto themselves - they are big enough to set their own engineering laws, and have been, since before WW2.

I've been down this road before, it's a world of pain and frustration. If SAE state a certain diameter shaft must have 14 splines, the Cat shaft will have 13 splines. Cat don't use SAE housings in their older construction machines, they only produce SAE housings when they build truck engines.

The D318 you have is entirely suitable for rebuild at a reasonable cost. Bite the bullet, pull the cylinder head off, and look directly into the bore and piston condition.
Mildly damaged bores will clean up just fine with a hone, and these old Cat engines are not high-tech European engines demanding precise tolerances, and needing a constant supply of new parts to make them function properly.

 

[Welder Dave]

I would agree that if the present engine can be repaired it's the only way to go. Don't condemn the engine until you've had it apart. It might not be as bad as you think. There may be other machines that a repower would be much easier but an older Cat grader would turn into a nightmare.

 

[Entropy1]

Please explain why repowering a CAT 12 would be a nightmare? The biggest obstacle appears to be the dual transmission input shafts. The inner shaft is direct coupled (splined) to the flywheel/crankshaft - which provides continuous power to drive the accessories. The outer shaft is clutch-coupled - to drive the wheels.

I see three basic options. 1. adapt the D318 clutch/flywheel to the repower engine. 2. modify the repower clutch/flywheel to mate with the CAT 12 transmission input shafts. 3. modify/replace the CAT 12 transmission input shafts.

I have no idea if the D318 bellhousing is a standard SAE, or some odd-ball CAT pattern. I have no idea if the shaft-diameter and shaft spline-count are standardized, or some odd-ball CAT size. I have no idea if the D318 flywheel/clutch are neutrally balanced, or not. I've previously asked, but no one seems to know? I suppose I'll find out when I pull the engine. I have a lathe large enough to modify the OEM flywheel, and also fabricate a bellhousing adapter (from weldment). I can also make a PTO/puck adapter for the inner shaft. The hardest part would be cutting female splines (would require an EDM).

My current engine is missing all of its fuel injectors. The engine filled with rainwater and is seized. It may or may not be freeze-cracked. The engine may or may not even be rebuildable. I priced out a rebuild kit (pistons/cylinders, bearings, gaskets, valves, guides, etc) - and the D318 isn't exactly cheap to overhaul. I haven't bothered to price out replacement injectors. My best option is to find a runner (aka non-seized) D318 and install that.

 

[Entropy1]

Right now my cheapest option to obtain a D318 engine is a $3,000 dollar CAT 12 grader in Oregon (a runner). It would cost me around 4 grand to have it trucked up to my place. At that point it's probably best just to keep the running grader and use mine for parts.

 

[OzDozer]

You're presuming that your D318 is full of unusable components without even dismantling them and examining them?

That, to me, would be the primary step in examining the options available to you. Provided the block checks out as not cracked, I don't see where acquiring a good quality engine rebuild kit and injectors is any major problem, you just need to find the right supplier.

As regards a Cummins conversion, you are going to run into major engineering work, reworking the flywheel/clutch conversion, fabricating new engine mounts, fabricating cooling system connections, arranging fan/radiator alignment (which could involve shifting the radiator and its mountings), modifying intake and exhaust arrangements - and setting the RPM and HP to match the original RPM and HP settings.

There will no doubt be other changes that will consume a lot of time and money. We have an old saying here, that goes, "when you start on a project with unknowns, go to the next highest unit and double the number".

So, this means that something that looks like it will take 10 minutes, ends up taking 20 hrs. Something that looks like 2 weeks work, ends up taking 4 months to complete.
Such are the joys of "projects", if you count your time for no value - well, maybe you can justify it, but most people place a value on their time - and constantly purchasing the required materials and odds and ends to finalise a project, can often run into a lot more dollars than originally envisioned.

 

[Entropy1]

There is no D318 rebuild kit (that I've been able to find anyway). You need to piece it together. Piston/cylinder kits are 250 bucks per hole (1500 for six). A set of main & rod bearings are about 500 bucks. A gaset set is about 600 bucks. And for the head - new valves? New guides? New seats? Or a simple valve job? Who knows? To rebuild a D318 one can expect to pay about 3 grand in parts (D318 parts are not cheap). Plus I'm looking at an extra 1200 to purchase six new injectors. Not sure what it costs to turn a D318 crank, but I'm assuming it costs more than turning an automotive crank.

I suppose I could try to dislodge the sized pistons and hone the cylinders - maybe replace the rings - slap it back together with a 600 dollar gasket set. But I'd still need 1200 dollars worth of injectors. Said another way, the most hillbilly get-it-running method will still set me back 2 grand. To rebuild it right, maybe 6 grand?

It is much more cost-effective to find a running D318 engine and drop it in. Or repower with a different engine.

Here's the what's puzzling me - the previous owner left the coffee can off the exhaust, and the engine filled with rainwater and seized - which doesn't say much for the previous owner. Dude could've installed a 30 dollar flapper on the exhaust pipe, but that would've cost him 30 dollars - so he went with the coffee can from under his sink. But I digress. After the engine seized, the grader was donated to a college in eastern Washington. The school's diesel department started the process of pulling the engine, and then they gave up and sold the grader at auction. So why did they give up?

 

[joe--h]

Past observation here tells me that eventually all the expert opinions that you're getting for free will give up on you when you continue to ignore what they're telling you.

Particularly when they ask over and over have you tried to bar it over.

And insist on ignoring the "Don't do it" re the engine swap to an unknown. If you could buy a kit like a Jag to Chevy conversion it might make sense, but you've got a half dozen guys with years and years of experience telling you don't go there and you aren't listening.

Just my 2¢

Joe H

 

[Entropy1]

Engine does not bar over (well over 500 ft-lbf - doesn't budge at all).

Soaking the cylinders, breaking it loose, and starting her up sounds like pretty good free advice - but it's simply not working. And should the engine magically unseize itself, I still require a full set of injectors, and several accessory gaskets (at a minimum) before it will run. Several components - coolant connections, exhaust connections, misc attachments for the pony motor - are installed finger tight.

I have been actively searching for a replacement D318 engine for over 6 months. I've posted want-ads, went to wrecking yards. I also search the internet for D318 engines every day at work on my lunch break. The closest I got was a few weeks ago, and that deal fell through. The vast majority of running D318 engines are installed within running CAT 12 graders and D8 dozers. If I buy a running grader, it sorta defeats the purpose of getting this one running (at that point just keep the running grader). Looking at the asking prices for dozers, it would also be cost-prohibitive to purchase a running D8 dozer, only to pull the engine for a grader project.

I did find an old 1950s vintage boat with a running D318 (engine in excellent condition), but it's 5 grand for the boat - plus I'd have to pay to dispose of the boat $$$

So basically what I should take away from these threads (because I am listening), is that I should pull & disassemble my engine for rebuild (if rebuildable). And if my engine is bad, or I am unable to find required replacement parts - I should scrap the grader. . . Right?

 

[Welder Dave]

You can buy a boat for $5K with an excellent D318 but you think you can do a repower for less? I think that would be your best option if you don't want to see what all your existing engine needs. It would be easier to repower a boat than a grader. If the boat is in any kind of decent shape you should get some of your money back. You could put the boat in an auction to get rid of it if need be.

 

[Coaldust]

The OP is going to disappear.
Then, in approximately six years, create a come back thread with his Detroit 453 turbo powered Model 12.

 

[Entropy1]

The boat has no trailer. It's not feasible to repower a boat in the marina (if it's even permitted). Besides, I'm not interested in trying to repower & flip a 5000-dollar boat. Even with a cherry engine swap - it's still just a 5000 dollar boat. I could pay to have the boat hauled to my house & put up on blocks ($$$) then I'd pull the engine. Then I'd have to cut up and dispose of about 12,000 pounds of old wooden boat (64 dollars per ton disposal fee, plus time & fuel). Considering everything required to obtain the marine engine, I'd be ahead simply paying 6 to 8 grand for a running CAT 12 grader, then use my current grader for parts.

And yes, I absolutely can repower for less than 5 grand. I'm not sure where the astronomical cost comes from in doing a motor swap? I have a lathe, a mill, welding gear, lots of steel, and access to an EDM. I would be making the required adapters/mounts - not paying someone else.