Hi, we’re thinking of ordering a extra set of track links for our D10N. Cat now has three options, General Duty, Heavy Duty and the HDXL. The HDXL are supposed to have a thicker rail and bushing and extended life. Does anyone have any first or second hand opinions on the three options? HDXL links are about $1000 more than Heavy duty and $5000 more than general duty. Thanks!
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CAT HDXL track groups
- Thread starter Rihpper
- Start date
John C.
Senior Member
Do you have any data on the undercarriage you are running now? What I have done in the past was use data to negotiate a cost per hour rating. Did you get 5,000 hours out of your heavy duty chains. So how much more life should you expect to get for $1,000 more. Also contrast what you are doing with the tractor on your last undercarriage. Do you have a ripper on the back that you use a little or a lot. Do you do some kind of regular track monitoring? What percentage were you worn at 2,000 hours or 3,500 hours. If you are dealing with a Cat dealer, you can make them do the measuring and monitoring. Another thought about that extra $1,000 dollars. Are you paying the freight to get it or is the dealer throwing that in? You might call someone else and throw them into the pool as well. Get a quote from someone else and see if they will work with data with you. Let it slip to the Cat rep that someone else is playing the game and they may bend over the stump for you. Maybe you can get that HDXL rail for the same as the heavy duty. Are you buying the chains through the Cat parts department. You shouldn't be. Always talk to the product support people as they have access to all the specials that the parts people don't even know about.
Good Luck!
Good Luck!
Thanks for the reply John C. I’ll try and answer most of the questions. We put new CAT PPR links on a different D10N That does identical work a few years ago, we had cat come out earlier this year and they measured the bushings. 35% worn with 2,835 hrs. (Bushings not turned). So yes I hope to get over 5,000 hrs out of them. Yes it has a ripper and it is ripping 99% of the time. No, we never pay freight from our cat dealer. Yes we are working with a PSSR. Another thing is the sales guy said the new general duty is equivalent to the old heavy duty ppr links... I don’t know if I believe him.
Nige
Senior Member
Maybe this is going over old ground already covered by John C but in no particular order.......
1. Do you have Cat undercarriage on the tractor right now.?
2. If yes, what Part Number links, rollers, idelrs, etc, are fitted.? (It should be on the U/C measurement report if you have one)
3. Have you had any U/C measurements done on the tractor on which you are planning on replacing U/C.?
4. Has anything on that tractor been replaced on a "one-off" basis recently.?
5. What part of the U/C system (Sprockets, grousers, links, bushes, track rollers, idlers, etc, etc.?) is going to reach the wear limit first and where will the other components in the system be, wear-wise, at that time.?
A personal preference but I don't like turning pins & bushes on this size of tractor. It's not a cost-effective return compared to running the complete Link Group to destruction.
This link may help - https://www.cat.com/en_US/support/maintenance/undercarriage.html - click on the "mining" tab because that's the category your machine falls under.
We were using what is now the HDXL (was previously known as Deeper Hardened Links) but that was in mining with high levels of abrasion & impact. It may be that the extra wear material of the HDXL might put the links "out of step" wear-wise to the rest of the U/C system and therefore give no benefit for the extra cost.
1. Do you have Cat undercarriage on the tractor right now.?
2. If yes, what Part Number links, rollers, idelrs, etc, are fitted.? (It should be on the U/C measurement report if you have one)
3. Have you had any U/C measurements done on the tractor on which you are planning on replacing U/C.?
4. Has anything on that tractor been replaced on a "one-off" basis recently.?
5. What part of the U/C system (Sprockets, grousers, links, bushes, track rollers, idlers, etc, etc.?) is going to reach the wear limit first and where will the other components in the system be, wear-wise, at that time.?
A personal preference but I don't like turning pins & bushes on this size of tractor. It's not a cost-effective return compared to running the complete Link Group to destruction.
I'm not sure I do either. Did you ask him for any proof in the form of a Sales document or similar from Cat to back up his statement.?
This link may help - https://www.cat.com/en_US/support/maintenance/undercarriage.html - click on the "mining" tab because that's the category your machine falls under.
We were using what is now the HDXL (was previously known as Deeper Hardened Links) but that was in mining with high levels of abrasion & impact. It may be that the extra wear material of the HDXL might put the links "out of step" wear-wise to the rest of the U/C system and therefore give no benefit for the extra cost.
It’s a million dollor question and one that I’m certainly not qualified to answer,but I like to be figuring out the cost per hour thing as allready mentioned here as opposed to just getting extra wear on things.
I can tell you with confidence,that I get better hourly rate cost on all my D8’s with ITR and ITM undercarriage parts.This doesn’t necessarily mean they last longer than Cat(allthough some do),it just means they are far more profitable for me to run than Cat.
However,each application is very different and needs careful consideration.
My gut feeling on a D10 is to stick with Cat undercarriage.As to wether it will be more profitable to choose one kind of Cat chain option over another,that will be determined by your impact/wear assessment.
Good luck,it’s all abit beyond me and I watch your thread with interest.
I can tell you with confidence,that I get better hourly rate cost on all my D8’s with ITR and ITM undercarriage parts.This doesn’t necessarily mean they last longer than Cat(allthough some do),it just means they are far more profitable for me to run than Cat.
However,each application is very different and needs careful consideration.
My gut feeling on a D10 is to stick with Cat undercarriage.As to wether it will be more profitable to choose one kind of Cat chain option over another,that will be determined by your impact/wear assessment.
Good luck,it’s all abit beyond me and I watch your thread with interest.
How much extra life did you get out of those over the heavy duty in your conditions?
John C.
Senior Member
My current track manual is Edition 17 and shows three different link part numbers. 9W-5265/66, 7T-0715/16 and 320-3053/54. They all use the same wear chart for link height. There is a note that if there was any link cracking to use the Lessor Allowable Wear chart on page 276. There is no mention of any differences in the part numbers of the track links. That doesn't mean that there are no difference is composition and metallurgy. It does show that they all use the same percentage of wear for the same measurement.
I assume one of those part #s are for the HDXL link. Maybe the HDXL link only has extra height in between the pins and not directly over the pin where you would measure link height.
John C.
Senior Member
It might be something new as well that isn't covered in my file.
There is mention of a link resistant to valley wear but I've never seen one that has different rail heights. Some years back Cat claimed the links were hardened deeper for some of the large tractors but what little I saw of those were spalling fair sized sections of steel off the links.
There is mention of a link resistant to valley wear but I've never seen one that has different rail heights. Some years back Cat claimed the links were hardened deeper for some of the large tractors but what little I saw of those were spalling fair sized sections of steel off the links.
Rihipper,I see you state that the bush goes first.This is my problem too with D8 and D9 tractors.
If that’s the case,I don’t see the advantage of spending anymore money at all on better chains.
Infact do you really need the expense of PPR?
I don’t know your conditions,but mine are soft abrasion,so general duty give me the same life as PPR without the additional cost.
In saying that,if my D9 was working in harder rock,I’d be wondering about the pins walking out on non PPR chains.As for your D10,that’s a heavy old beast and probably needs Cat PPR to keep it from breaking links and pins?
I definitely think paying extra for these fancy link chains will be a waste of money for your operation.
If you were turning the bushes,then you may get the value out of the raised link,but you’re not.
I agree,turning is not my thing either
If that’s the case,I don’t see the advantage of spending anymore money at all on better chains.
Infact do you really need the expense of PPR?
I don’t know your conditions,but mine are soft abrasion,so general duty give me the same life as PPR without the additional cost.
In saying that,if my D9 was working in harder rock,I’d be wondering about the pins walking out on non PPR chains.As for your D10,that’s a heavy old beast and probably needs Cat PPR to keep it from breaking links and pins?
I definitely think paying extra for these fancy link chains will be a waste of money for your operation.
If you were turning the bushes,then you may get the value out of the raised link,but you’re not.
I agree,turning is not my thing either
It’s very easy to fall into the belt and braces trap if you’re feeling flush with money and want to buy the best that money can buy for your tractor.I’ve fallen into this trap more than once myself with different Cat undercarriage options.
The parts books seem to offer plenty of options for varying quality track parts.It gets confusing to be honest.
For example,Cat offer D8 idlers at about £1200 each and £2500 each.That’s a huge difference in price over 4 idlers that are needed.You would need more than double the lifespan,at least, just to break even.
So,what do you get for the super,fabulous £2500 idlers that you need to make twice as long?
Well,I don’t know,but when I look carefully at the parts book,the axel shaft and actual idler wheel are exactly the same part numbers.
The bearings and seals are the only difference.I assume they must be designed for extremely corrosive or cold climates?
Eitherway,the bit that wears against the rail is the same,so will wear out just as fast.
I run all mine to destruction and allways use 3 sets of segments to get maximum life out of the chains.
Segments are cheap and easy to fit and get great life out of the bushes.
The 3rd set will only get around 300 hours for me,but that goes a long way towards paying for new tracks.
The parts books seem to offer plenty of options for varying quality track parts.It gets confusing to be honest.
For example,Cat offer D8 idlers at about £1200 each and £2500 each.That’s a huge difference in price over 4 idlers that are needed.You would need more than double the lifespan,at least, just to break even.
So,what do you get for the super,fabulous £2500 idlers that you need to make twice as long?
Well,I don’t know,but when I look carefully at the parts book,the axel shaft and actual idler wheel are exactly the same part numbers.
The bearings and seals are the only difference.I assume they must be designed for extremely corrosive or cold climates?
Eitherway,the bit that wears against the rail is the same,so will wear out just as fast.
I run all mine to destruction and allways use 3 sets of segments to get maximum life out of the chains.
Segments are cheap and easy to fit and get great life out of the bushes.
The 3rd set will only get around 300 hours for me,but that goes a long way towards paying for new tracks.
Nige
Senior Member
This ............
Nicky, I may be wrong but Idon't think there is any non-PPR alternative in this size of link group. Wlaking pins out in the larger tractors was the reason PPR came into being in the first place.
If the bushes let go first (turned or not) what's the point of having extra wear metal on the links.? On the face of it it appears that you should be going for less wear iron on the links so that the whole assembly, bushes & all, hits the wear limit about the same time. In view of that comment I'd still advocate run to destruction rather than go to the expense of a turn.
John, AFAIK the only difference between the various link part numbers (and there are some now with 500-xxxx P/N's) is the metallurgy and depth of hardening, hence Cat referring to the 1st iteration of the link as a Deeper Hardened link.
The newer Duralink offering in the HDXL link groups is a totally different animal, and not just in metallurgy. The profile of the links where they run on the track rollers and idlers is completely different. There's more meat in the links and the bushes are larger diameter.
I think you’re correct Nige.
The current D8 line up offers general duty,PPR and these new heavy link things.
Now,you mention it,the non oem manufacturers only offer PPR on D9 upwards.
I agree about the desire to have lesser quality link metal.It hurts me to throw 30/40% link height every time on my chains,regardless of who makes them.
I also use cheap segments as I am wondering that they are softer on the bush than Cat segments.
I also replace the first set well early.I am thinking it stops the sharper worn segments eating the bushes up.
It’s a trail thing,but so far I’m proving my own point to myself (I think!)
I also wish I could buy cheap and nasty pads.
When my chains are through,I still have at least 50% left on them.
Removing them is a pain,but I get 2 uses out of them.
It would be nice to just replace the trackgroups complete.
The current D8 line up offers general duty,PPR and these new heavy link things.
Now,you mention it,the non oem manufacturers only offer PPR on D9 upwards.
I agree about the desire to have lesser quality link metal.It hurts me to throw 30/40% link height every time on my chains,regardless of who makes them.
I also use cheap segments as I am wondering that they are softer on the bush than Cat segments.
I also replace the first set well early.I am thinking it stops the sharper worn segments eating the bushes up.
It’s a trail thing,but so far I’m proving my own point to myself (I think!)
I also wish I could buy cheap and nasty pads.
When my chains are through,I still have at least 50% left on them.
Removing them is a pain,but I get 2 uses out of them.
It would be nice to just replace the trackgroups complete.
This is the most receant set of D8 segments I removed.
They are ITR at a cost of £440 for both sides.Cat are £1000 both sides.
You can see in the pic that they aren’t worn out,but I chose to replace them anyway.
I’m getting more life out of my bushes doing this.
It’s backwards thinking,but it’s working for me
They are ITR at a cost of £440 for both sides.Cat are £1000 both sides.
You can see in the pic that they aren’t worn out,but I chose to replace them anyway.
I’m getting more life out of my bushes doing this.
It’s backwards thinking,but it’s working for me
Attachments
But we do turn the bushings. On the machine that we would buy links for we turned them when they were 100% worn and we still had about 50% link left. I think even after the turn it will wear through the bushings first. In our conditions i think it makes sense to turn them. The HDXL bushing is supposedly thicker, does Anyone know how much thicker than PPR?
Sorry, I miss read your post on turning bushes.I should stop reading these first thing in the morning when I’m still half asleep!!
I like the idea of the bigger bushing in the video.
Will be interesting to see how much they are to buy
Nige
Senior Member
Your dealer PSSR should be able to answer that question.