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Cat 426 Engine Will Not Run

funwithfuel

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If, IF it's starving for fuel, you should have a dry fuel filter, but you have an electric fuel pump. Theoretically, it shouldn't happen. Do you have a separator prior to the electric pump? It could be full of garbage restricting fuel flow.
 

Rocket Man

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If, IF it's starving for fuel, you should have a dry fuel filter, but you have an electric fuel pump. Theoretically, it shouldn't happen. Do you have a separator prior to the electric pump? It could be full of garbage restricting fuel flow.
Yes to separator. Filter has been changed trying to fix this problem. I even bypassed the separator to see if it would fix it and nothing changed.
I am almost convinced it is the check valve because it has that pinhole in it. I just ordered a new one and should be here in a couple of days. Hopefully that will resolve the issue.
One thing is certain, it IS fuel related.
 

Rocket Man

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If, IF it's starving for fuel, you should have a dry fuel filter, but you have an electric fuel pump. Theoretically, it shouldn't happen. Do you have a separator prior to the electric pump? It could be full of garbage restricting fuel flow.
Oh yes, i forgot to mention this. After the engine died the last time i checked all points i could looking for fuel. I broke open the supply line to pump from secondary and there was fuel there , i took out the small filter in the rear of the pump and there was fuel, i opened the bleeder on side of pump and there was fuel and last of all i removed the check valve and there was fuel there. So in fact, the fuel is getting to the pump.
Question is, is there enough pressure ? Also/or does that pump have an internal pressure switch in it? May be shutting down from too much or lack of pressure??
 

funwithfuel

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I'm pretty confident that pump has the mechanical pressure regulator and only the electrical shutoff solenoid. I don't think there's a whole heck of a lot going on in there. You have the dreaded Lucas CAV injection pump. They're fine for what they are but, there are whole websites dedicated to troubleshoot and correct issues with this system. I can't see your entire system and injection pumps are not my specialty. I would take a few minutes and google lucas cav fuel system troubleshooting. See what you find, it could be as simple as a stuck inlet valve or gummed up something. Good luck, and please share what you find.
 

Rocket Man

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I'm pretty confident that pump has the mechanical pressure regulator and only the electrical shutoff solenoid. I don't think there's a whole heck of a lot going on in there. You have the dreaded Lucas CAV injection pump. They're fine for what they are but, there are whole websites dedicated to troubleshoot and correct issues with this system. I can't see your entire system and injection pumps are not my specialty. I would take a few minutes and google lucas cav fuel system troubleshooting. See what you find, it could be as simple as a stuck inlet valve or gummed up something. Good luck, and please share what you find.
OK, Will do. Thanks for the tip.
 

mg2361

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Unless I missed it, I haven't seen anything in this thread about the fuel shutoff solenoid being removed and inspected. Bench tested it? It has been a while (years actually), but I have replaced many a CAV shutoff solenoid for no start conditions.

Resistance of those solenoids is 16 ohms.
 
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melben

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Unless I missed it, I haven't seen anything in this thread about the fuel shutoff solenoid being removed and inspected. Bench tested it? It has been a while (years actually), but I have replaced many a CAV shutoff solenoid for no start conditions.

Resistance of those solenoids is 16 ohms.
Jumping in on this thread kinda late but The Lucas is a rotory head pump like the Roosa . Many years ago I had a 580 E that had the same symptoms, the check valve at the base of the pump was my problem. The Roosa pumps do the same thing when the governor ring deteriorates and plugs the check valve in the top cover, It would be interesting to see what happens if that check valved could be eliminated for testing purposes.
 

Rocket Man

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Unless I missed it, I haven't seen anything in this thread about the fuel shutoff solenoid being removed and inspected. Bench tested it? It has been a while (years actually), but I have replaced many a CAV shutoff solenoid for no start conditions.

Resistance of those solenoids is 16 ohms.
OK. I have not done that because the engine does not just suddenly stop, it starts by running slower and slower then just goes to idle and then dies. I will pull it today and check it out.
 

Rocket Man

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Jumping in on this thread kinda late but The Lucas is a rotory head pump like the Roosa . Many years ago I had a 580 E that had the same symptoms, the check valve at the base of the pump was my problem. The Roosa pumps do the same thing when the governor ring deteriorates and plugs the check valve in the top cover, It would be interesting to see what happens if that check valved could be eliminated for testing purposes.
Good idea, how do i do that? I was wondering about that yesterday and did a search and came across a situation where this fellow advised somebody to take a punch and break the glass ball in a check valve and then it would run? Not sure how that works BC I understand that the CAV has to have a certain amount of inside pressure in order for it to work. If it has no CV then it would be a direct flow thru?
 

melben

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Direct thru yes, Roosas for years had no CV in them and ran just fine. Do not know about Lucas.
When it shuts off does it take a while before it will restart, if so you could run it till it shuts off, remove the fitting and see if it restarts immediately. I would see if it will run without the check valve, Incidently, you described perfectly the same style CV used in a Roosa, glass ball and a little notch you can see through by the ball.
 

Rocket Man

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Direct thru yes, Roosas for years had no CV in them and ran just fine. Do not know about Lucas.
When it shuts off does it take a while before it will restart, if so you could run it till it shuts off, remove the fitting and see if it restarts immediately. I would see if it will run without the check valve, Incidently, you described perfectly the same style CV used in a Roosa, glass ball and a little notch you can see through by the ball.
Good information and i will try what you suggested. Yes, when it shuts down it will not start for 20 to 30 minutes. I always have to give it a shot of ether to get it going every time, even when it was running "good".
Yes, this CV has a tiny pinhole right next to the steel bearing and today i went to the shop where it was rebuilt and talked with the fellow who actually does the work. He inspected the CV and declared it perfect and working. Told me that high internal pressure would shut the motor down similar to what i described. My question, which he could not answer, was, if the CV is working how could it build up internal pressure?
He also told me how to bypass the electrical solenoid. Just take it out and remove the plastic plunger and reinstall it. Said i would have to shut it down manually. Gonna try it again later today.
 

Rocket Man

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Well, i have exhausted all my theories and tried just about everything that has been suggested and have concluded that it is indeed the injector pump,,, AGAIN.
I just installed a brand new electric fuel pump and had the exact same results as before, it will start up and run for about 10 to 15 minutes then start losing RPM's and finally just idle and die.
There is nothing else i can do to explain it and there is nothing left to change out. All hoses, filters have been changed at least 2 times and fittings have been checked for tightness and all clamps have been re-tightened. I have decided that a new pump is the only solution. The people who rebuilt it six months ago?? Well they said it had no warranty on it and maybe they would have to rebuild it again. NOT on their life would i take it back there. My take on it is , if a company can't guarantee it for more than six months,,, then they are a failure from the beginning.
 

funwithfuel

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Well, i have exhausted all my theories and tried just about everything that has been suggested and have concluded that it is indeed the injector pump,,, AGAIN.
I just installed a brand new electric fuel pump and had the exact same results as before, it will start up and run for about 10 to 15 minutes then start losing RPM's and finally just idle and die.
There is nothing else i can do to explain it and there is nothing left to change out. All hoses, filters have been changed at least 2 times and fittings have been checked for tightness and all clamps have been re-tightened. I have decided that a new pump is the only solution. The people who rebuilt it six months ago?? Well they said it had no warranty on it and maybe they would have to rebuild it again. NOT on their life would i take it back there. My take on it is , if a company can't guarantee it for more than six months,,, then they are a failure from the beginning.
Agreed, but, you have to look at the rebuilders side. They provide service, then some yahoo put water contaminated fuel in, or uses a jug that had DEF in it. You see where I'm going here? Have you checked the solenoid as suggested? Did you check it again immediately after shutdown? Was the Google search on your fuel system any help at all?
 

Rocket Man

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Agreed, but, you have to look at the rebuilders side. They provide service, then some yahoo put water contaminated fuel in, or uses a jug that had DEF in it. You see where I'm going here? Have you checked the solenoid as suggested? Did you check it again immediately after shutdown? Was the Google search on your fuel system any help at all?
Checked the solenoid and found nothing. I disabled it by taking the plunger out of it (per the rebuilders instructions) and that had no effect except it would not turn off by the key. The search covered pretty much all the territory i have covered and all the action i have taken. Nothing there that was new or could help explain. I know when i am whipped and that is why i am going to a new injector pump.
Thanks for all your help. We did the best we could and time to just bite the bullet and face reality. LOL
 

mg2361

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My question, which he could not answer, was, if the CV is working how could it build up internal pressure?

Restricted fuel return circuit such as a pinched hose, partially plugged hose, internally collapsing hose.

Also, was the fuel tank vent checked?
 

Rocket Man

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Restricted fuel return circuit such as a pinched hose, partially plugged hose, internally collapsing hose.

Also, was the fuel tank vent checked?
First off i like your motto: "Quality repairs are the rule, not the exception!" Too bad that most people do not practice that. Unfortunately most business just want the money at all risks.
Now, The vent line was removed and found it was clear, reinstalled. Removed return line at the secondary and blew air thru it, it was free. There are no rubber lines on the return line. I turn on key , engine cold, and the electric pump is pumping fuel back into tank and can hear it flowing back. This procedure was done BEFORE i started the engine after sitting for a while. It sounds like the return line terminates at the top of the tank fitting because it makes a lot of noise in the tank.
So here is the summary of return line tests.
1) with engine cold the return line is free and fuel pours back into the tank.
2) after the engine dies i leave the key on and listen for fuel return back to the tanks and there is none.
One thing i did to test the fuel flow was after the engine died and i left the key on so pump would keep going, i cracked open the supply line INTO the pump (at the rear) and there was plenty of fuel flowing out. However when i cracked open the line OUT at the CV I had no fuel coming out. I then tightened the lines back and listened for fuel return to the tank and there was none.
Any ideas? i would hate to install a new pump and get the same results because i missed a minor item. LOL
 

56wrench

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Just a WAG. Did you check for a plugged or partially restricted leak-off line from the injectors? If it is plugged, the injectors will hydraulic lock and the engine will die fairly quickly. If only partially restricted, it may take longer to die. The leak-off line is the small one that joins all the injectors together and then is usually teed into the fuel return line from the injection pump. The line could be partly plugged or squashed or that branch of the Tee could be restricted. Disconnect it from the tee(if it has one) and run it. You will have to run the return lines into a pail to catch the fuel so it doesn't make a mess.There should be a small amount of fuel coming from the leak-off line which is normal.
 

Rocket Man

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Just a WAG. Did you check for a plugged or partially restricted leak-off line from the injectors? If it is plugged, the injectors will hydraulic lock and the engine will die fairly quickly. If only partially restricted, it may take longer to die. The leak-off line is the small one that joins all the injectors together and then is usually teed into the fuel return line from the injection pump. The line could be partly plugged or squashed or that branch of the Tee could be restricted. Disconnect it from the tee(if it has one) and run it. You will have to run the return lines into a pail to catch the fuel so it doesn't make a mess.There should be a small amount of fuel coming from the leak-off line which is normal.
Well, i did not look at that aspect because it never occurred to me. I will take a look at that today. My intent to day is to remove the pump and take a close look at it. I found another "re-builder" that may be more reliable who agrees to "take a look" at it . Not sure what all that means. The process of rebuilding is a mystery to me as all i see in a "rebuild" kit are a bunch of O rings and gaskets?? Why does it cost so much? Kit is cheap.
Anyway, after much searching and research i personally believe it is internal pressure related and possibly tied to the governor. This thing is driving me crazy.
 
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