CAT 252B3 losing power when below freezing

[ThreeCW]

Below is a picture of the screen after draining with only 50/50 blend fresh from the station with no additives. You can see some waxing but not nearly as bad. Machine ran for 30 minutes with no issue -- it was about 8 below F. Now I'm not sure if I should add the Hot Shots Secret that I ran all last winter without issue or switch additives -- maybe to Power Service White Bottle. It'll be -15F here in the morning with windchills hitting -30 to 40 the next couple days.

If the "50/50 blend fresh from the station with no additives" is still waxing up on you, then that "winter" fuel is not blended for the low temperatures you are experiencing. A properly blended winter fuel should not be waxing up on you (causing filter plugging) and you should not "have to" add an additive to achieve low temperature operability ... additives that provide cold weather protection can be used to provide "additional" protection, but the winter diesel fuel must be properly formulated (blended) to meet your low temperature requirements.

I suggest talking to your fuel supplier and find out the temperature rating of the diesel you are buying. Based on your waxing problems, it appears that the fuel your are buying does not meet your low temperature requirements. One of the reasons for out of spec fuel can be if it is old inventory ... blended for September or October temperatures ... which will not work for you in December ... even with the addition of a fuel additive.

Your best option would be to find an alternate fuel supplier with diesel fuel that is correctly blended to meet the low temperatures you are seeing today and the low temperatures you expect to see the rest of the winter.

As an example, I have attached a chart for Alberta diesel fuel showing the seasonal operating temperatures. You may be able to find a similar chart for your region. It is a handy chart to have for deciding on when to purchase your winter fuel requirements.

 

[Boreal]

That's not a good sign. You had a fair bit of water in the separator before, didn't you? I was guessing it was wax in the filter but warming it up should show if it settles in the bottom as water or not. I wouldn't think the new fuel in MN should wax up.

In any case, I wouldn't expect the tank to be empty of water after one draining with some ice in there. I'd put five gallons more than you expect to use, then when it's been above freezing all day, warm the fuel up, get it sloshed around and drain it again. Repeat until there is no more water found.

Yeah, the problem is looking like it could be 3 fold:
1. I definitely had water out of the separator and ice in the tank
2. I found the leaf blocking the filler head inlet
3. Now potential waxing

The good news is I'm learning a ton and I think we're making progress.

What is the purpose for the inline filter? Don't know why you'd need it on a diesel and think it could be contributing to your problems. I know some people don't recommend them on gravity feed gas engines. Seems like it would be an easy way to get an air lock and being small would plug much easier. I've always seen they have a small air pocket and aren't 100% filled with fuel. Diesel needs pretty much a closed system from tank to IP with no air anywhere.

The screen was added because of the leaf I found blocking the filter inlet. I haven't had any debris in the screen since adding it. I suppose with a freshly drained tank, I could remove the screen now but it sure is nice security and for visual inspection.

 

[Boreal]

If the "50/50 blend fresh from the station with no additives" is still waxing up on you, then that "winter" fuel is not blended for the low temperatures you are experiencing. A properly blended winter fuel should not be waxing up on you (causing filter plugging) and you should not "have to" add an additive to achieve low temperature operability ... additives that provide cold weather protection can be used to provide "additional" protection, but the winter diesel fuel must be properly formulated (blended) to meet your low temperature requirements.

I suggest talking to your fuel supplier and find out the temperature rating of the diesel you are buying. Based on your waxing problems, it appears that the fuel your are buying does not meet your low temperature requirements. One of the reasons for out of spec fuel can be if it is old inventory ... blended for September or October temperatures ... which will not work for you in December ... even with the addition of a fuel additive.

Your best option would be to find an alternate fuel supplier with diesel fuel that is correctly blended to meet the low temperatures you are seeing today and the low temperatures you expect to see the rest of the winter.

As an example, I have attached a chart for Alberta diesel fuel showing the seasonal operating temperatures. You may be able to find a similar chart for your region. It is a handy chart to have for deciding on when to purchase your winter fuel requirements.

This makes sense. Who knows how empty the station tank was when they got the winter blends. Maybe there is residual summer blend in there before I get it. The two tags of winter blend info from the station are below.




But I've been adding HotShots Winter Anti-gel to every tank since we first broke before freezing for added protection. I know we get colder than the station is prepared for and sometimes I have to buy my fuel a month or two at a time. Right now it's -20F and you can see the station blend only claims good to -15F. Temperature can change a lot in a month so I always like to add the additive. I also add it for the lubricity and moisture demulsiphier.

So my big curiosity now is why did I get waxing with the hotshots anti-gel. And the fuel isn't cloudy. You can see in the pictures of the screen the fuel around the wax is nice and clear. So is this just considered "waxing" and not "gelling?"

The videos I've seen of gelling look like cloudy molasses when poured. My fuel looks like nice clean diesel. The only evidence of a problem is the blockage in the screen.

I picked up 10 more gallons in fuel cans from a different station last night. I guess we'll see if anything changes.

 

[Delmer]

The screen won't cause a problem by itself. It will make any plugging happen faster, and make it visible, and easy to fix.

The water is a problem. The fuel mix should not be a problem above zero. The additive shouldn't be needed, but shouldn't cause a problem, but COULD cause water to suspend and make ice, wild guess. OR, somehow the water and/or additive cause the waxing? another wild guess.

Still not positive that's wax or ice in the filter, maybe it doesn't matter. Fix the water and it might all go away.

 

[Boreal]

The screen won't cause a problem by itself. It will make any plugging happen faster, and make it visible, and easy to fix.

The water is a problem. The fuel mix should not be a problem above zero. The additive shouldn't be needed, but shouldn't cause a problem, but COULD cause water to suspend and make ice, wild guess. OR, somehow the water and/or additive cause the waxing? another wild guess.

Still not positive that's wax or ice in the filter, maybe it doesn't matter. Fix the water and it might all go away.

The water separation from the additive is likely what was causing the water problem no idea on the waxing problem yet. But like you say, maybe they're somehow connected. I talked to the guys at the Hotshots Secret lab yesterday and since the Winter Anti-gel has a demulsifier and I add it to my bulk tank, the water is falling out in the bulk tank. That's good and fine if I had a drain to periodically drain it and if my pickup wasn't on the bottom. Since my pickup was on the bottom, I was getting a high water concentration. I raised the pickup yesterday 3" off the bottom. I won't fuel from the bulk tank again until I have a better understanding of what is happening to cause that freezing or waxing but at least I won't be sucking off the bottom anymore. When the weather is nicer, I'll weld on a drain.

In the equipment, the demulsification is intended to drop the water to the bottom where the pickup is and send it to the separator. Of course, draining it off from the tank drain once in a while is a good idea as well. I thought it was interesting that they intended the water to get sucked into the pickup and removed from the tank through the separator. Maybe less of an intention as just a fact of the pickup needing to be on the bottom.

It sounds like they are going to want a sample of the fuel sent to them to figure out what is going on. Hopefully all this is helpful to someone else out there as well.

 

[Nige]

That's good and fine if I had a drain to periodically drain it and if my pickup wasn't on the bottom. Since my pickup was on the bottom, I was getting a high water concentration.

That's your problem right there IMO. The tank should be installed sloped away from the feed end so that the water accumulates at the other end and can be drained periodically. You can get the 3" elevation difference simply by inclining the tank during installation. To me the 3" elevation difference should be measured between the top of the nipple for the drain to the bottom of the nipple for the feed. The filter in the illustration shown below would be optional.

 

[Delmer]

The additive didn't put the water in the fuel, and didn't cause that amount of water to drop out of the fuel. MAYBE it caused some water to make that ice and that's what's in the filter? One trick to get water out of a storage tank, especially a horizontal round tank, when the tank is above freezing, or if you heat it enough to melt the ice, wet the end of a rope in water and drop it to the bottom of the tank, once it freezes you can pull the ice up. Of course if you have a small hole and a large chunk of ice it won't work, but if you can drain off the worst of the water, the rope will get most of the rest.

 

[ThreeCW]

According to your photos at the pump, your Winter Blend Diesel already has Cold Flow Improver in it.

It may be possible that the addition of another additive (Hotshots Secret in your case) might not reduce the wax point of your fuel further ... and hopefully does not cause problems resulting from additive incompatibly.

If you want to continue using your Hotshots Secret, you might be better off sourcing an additive free diesel with a low temperature operability.

 

[Boreal]

That's your problem right there IMO.
View attachment 275606

Yeah, this mess has me rethinking my whole storage and treatment plan. Maybe I should upgrade my bulk tank to an IBC tote. I'd get 5x the storage, a built-in sloped bottom with drain, no need to worry about rust, probably less condensation with plastic instead of metal, and a built-in skid.

It may be possible that the addition of another additive (Hotshots Secret in your case) might not reduce the wax point of your fuel further ... and hopefully does not cause problems resulting from additive incompatibility.

If you want to continue using your Hotshots Secret, you might be better off sourcing an additive free diesel with a low temperature operability.

As I think all this through, if I'm adding my own anti-gel why do I bother with station winter blends. Right now I try to plan out my bulk tank being empty with the station finally getting winter blend just in time. The Hotshots anti-gel is probably a more efficient way to drop cloud point compared to adding kerosene and unknown additives like I get from the station.

I like running the Hotshots for the other benefits too so I'm most likely gonna keep using it. Plus the guys over there are going to test my fuel to see what is going on, send me an emergency kit (that I'll keep for a real emergency), and a replacement gallon of the anti-gel just in case I got a bad batch or something. Seems they want to know what's happening as much as I do.

In Minnesota, we have a 5-20% bio requirement with 5% required in the winter. Apparently, there is no known way to stop bio from waxing. Maybe that is why I have wax mixed with clear fuel -- only the bio waxed and the petro-fuel is fine. In my 5-minutes of research online, the bio-proponents think 20F is "cold." It seems bio blends might be fine for winters above zero but here we will spend weeks below zero and can hit -40. Canola has one of the lowest bio cloud points at 32 and is a solid by 20*F -- I can't imagine that helps my fuel any.

If I switch to a 250-gallon IBC tote for storage, maybe I can drive across the border to Delmer's land and get some real non-fatty fuel once a year and just treat it myself. Or maybe they're stuck with bio too.

 

[ThreeCW]

If anyone wants more information on Winter Diesel, here is a good article to review: Biodiesel Cloud Point and Cold Weather Issues

See: https://farm-energy.extension.org/biodiesel-cloud-point-and-cold-weather-issues/

 

[Welder Dave]

I'm still not too sure about the inline filter. Some people with Lincoln welders experienced harder starting when an inline filter was installed on gas engines. Most of the ones I've seen still have a little air bubble in them. I'm not sure if that air bubble could cause a problem further down the fuel system. Diesel's have a good filter system to begin with so don't see the need for the inline filter. People have used clear hose to look for air bubbles but they are a temporary diagnostic tool.

 

[heymccall]

Your perception about the air bubble is unfounded and untrue.
And, that's technically not a filter added inline, it's a SCREEN. Big, big, big difference.

Perhaps you haven't seen the umpteen threads where tank debris actually blocks the separator filters inlet?

Or been around anything Caterpillar 314E and up since, say, 2015 or so?

Or read the updates on adding an inline SCREEN on many, many, many skid steers?

I'd be happy to link them here, to satisfy curiosity. I usually start by searching "3972".

 

[ThreeCW]

Welder Dave,
In post #48 (https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/cat-252b3-losing-power-when-below-freezing.97832/page-3#post-1092757), Boreal found a birch leaf in the inlet of his filter head. The concern of more debris in the fuel tank resulted in him installing the inline filter.

I had a similar debris problem on my 242B and installed a clear basket screen filter between the fuel tank and the fuel pump ... it provides a good pre-filter that can be visually checked and is easily replaced if debris is present.

The basket screen filter provides little flow restriction to the system ... unless plugged with debris or plugged with wax. If a supplementary in-line filter was not installed, the restriction would still occur further down stream in the fuel filter screen of the fuel pump (if equipped) or in the fuel separator / filter ... both which are not able to be visually checked.

I am in agreement with heymccall that the in-line filter is beneficial for both operational and troubleshooting purposes.

 

[Welder Dave]

OK, I know a lot of machines have a screen at the tank but didn't think an inline screen was a permanent addition. A leaf would likely get caught in the tank not further down the fuel line.

 

[Delmer]

Water separators were sometimes built with a clear bowl and worked great, except when the inlet was restrictive I guess. The bowls get clouded and dirty though. Stanadyne used to use square glass filters that made diagnostics so easy. Even Cav used glass bowls on the bottom of the primary filter. At least glass could be cleaned if you kept up with it. Those all had their issues, but they worked good. The inline filter/screen does the same thing, even easier to see because the depth of fluid is less.

 

[Welder Dave]

My tractor with a Perkins has the glass CAV agglomerator. The drain screw somehow got seized in place. I don't have many problems with water so didn't want to risk breaking the glass bowl. It is nice for seeing if you have water in the fuel.

 

[Boreal]

I'm making progress. It's about 11 below now with -35ish windchill. I just got in from 6 hours of snow clearing. I kept 10 gallons of fuel inside the house so I could top it off with some warmth to help things along while she warmed up.

With all the fuel being straight from the station in fuel cans, I still had the waxing but it was less severe than before. That could be because I added the warm fuel today. I just thawed the strainer with the heat gun until the wax was gone and we were back in business. I had to do that 3 times over a couple hours before the fuel warmed up enough to stay clear on its own. After the screen was staying clear of wax for a while, I added 1/2 a tank of fuel from my bulk tank then went in for dinner while I let it idle to circulate. I then ran the snowblower for about 3 hours with no issue. The strainer stayed clear the whole time.

Since I have no idea what I'm getting for bio in my fuel and I don't have any simple solutions for non bio fuel, I think my only solution is to run some 12v heat tape with insulation along the inlet fuel line, strainer, and filter so I can heat them for the first hour of operation or so.

Before I shut the machine down tonight, the fuel filter and screen were both 17° and clear. Of course that's the external temp taken with IR so the fuel is warmer than that. So whatever is waxing, was happy enough with that temp.

 

[ThreeCW]

If I am reading it correctly, for the blend of 50% #1 and 50% #2 B5, the B5 would indicate 5% Biodiesel in the #2 fuel which works out to 2.5% Biodiesel in the blended 50% / 50% fuel.

According to the paper I linked in Post #70 above,
"Low blends of biodiesel tend to perform the same as diesel fuel in cold weather. Studies funded by the National Biodiesel Board indicate that blends of B2 or B5 have minimal or no effect on cold-flow properties of diesel blends."

 

[Boreal]

"Low blends of biodiesel tend to perform the same as diesel fuel in cold weather. Studies funded by the National Biodiesel Board indicate that blends of B2 or B5 have minimal or no effect on cold-flow properties of diesel blends."

The tobacco board says cigarettes are good for you. I wonder what a study funded by the petroleum board would find. Or a study funded by the cold climate snow pushers board. All I know is I have waxing when I shouldn't and high cloud point bio seems likely the culprit. Hopefully, it is just B5. I don't know how filling stations work but if the tank was 1/2 full of #2 B20 when they filled with the winter blend, did the guy filling accurately account for that? Our statute states they need a minimum of B5 in the winter. Maybe the sign is just showing they meet the minimum.

Also, in the same paper you posted (a very good read thank you),

"Winterization is the process of removing saturated methyl esters by cooling the fuel to cause crystallization and then separating the high melting components by filtration.... Winterization is generally not an efficient way of improving cold flow properties because of the high yield loss. It is also not practical in many cases to store the high CP fraction which was separated for summer use or to transport it to a warmer climate region, so it must be used as a lower-value fuel."​

it seems to me I am performing the winterization filtration. Anyhow, it'll be interesting to see what the Hotshots lab finds from my sample.

 

[Boreal]

ThreeCW do you guys have bio in your winter fuel up there? Your climate is similar to ours right now. Curious if your equipment sits outside and has any waxing issues. I know you said your fuel is rated to -27 deg F but does it have bio?