Case 580k won't start without ether after sitting over 24 hours

[micklon223]

I just recently bought a 87 case 580k with the 4bt cummins non-turbo, and when it sits for more than 24 hours it has trouble starting. I believe it is getting air in the fuel system. I have changed the fuel level sensor(it didn't work before), so it has plenty of fuel and the fuel looks good, no water or sludge. I've changed the fuel filters as well. The previous owner said that the mechanical lift pump was weak so he put an electric one in line before the mechanical one. I'm not sure if a bad lift pump could let air in the system and if not how to find out where it is getting in because no fuel leaks out of any lines when its running.

 

[Tinkerer]

The check valve in the fuel line is most likely the problem.
Have you changed the in-line fuel filter lately ?
If not, use an OEM filter you won't regret it.

 

[micklon223]

The check valve in the fuel line is most likely the problem.
Have you changed the in-line fuel filter lately ?
If not, use an OEM filter you won't regret it.

Where would the check valve be located? Because the hard line from the tank to the mechanical lift pump has be replaced with rubber hose. And there is no in-line filter.
Its getting air in the system, I have to bleed it before I try to start it everyday.

 

[Delmer]

The lift pump has two check valves in it, so that should be good enough by itself. Adding an electrical pump is an acceptable step to diagnose an issue, but the issue should be fixed then.

Does the engine fire at all? or does it fire a little and die right away? and do you have a rotary injection pump and a diaphragm lift pump, or an inline injection pump with a piston lift pump attached to the injection pump?

 

[Tinkerer]

#8 and #12 is what you need to look a little harder for.
#12 is the check valve.
They are there unless some dummy removed them.

 

[micklon223]

#8 and #12 is what you need to look a little harder for.
#12 is the check valve.
They are there unless some dummy removed them.

View attachment 260993

ya its definitely got no filter(#8), I've probably got the previous owner to thank for that.
As for #12 Is that on the end of the return line?

 

[micklon223]

The lift pump has two check valves in it, so that should be good enough by itself. Adding an electrical pump is an acceptable step to diagnose an issue, but the issue should be fixed then.

Does the engine fire at all? or does it fire a little and die right away? and do you have a rotary injection pump and a diaphragm lift pump, or an inline injection pump with a piston lift pump attached to the injection pump?

It usually starts for 1 second or less then dies and will not restart without ether. It has a rotary injection pump on the timing case, a diaphragm style lift pump on the side of the block and an in line (aftermarket) clicky style electric pump. I did not install the electric pump. I assume the diaphragm lift pump died and the previous owner added the electric one instead of replacing the one that died.

 

[Tinkerer]

The check valve is supposed to be close to the fuel supply line. Just like it is shown in the drawing.
Did you look inside the tractor frame for the inline filter ?
Where is the electric pump located ? Those pulse pumps don't like to suck very high from the tank bottom.

 

[micklon223]

The check valve is supposed to be close to the fuel supply line. Just like it is shown in the drawing.
Did you look inside the tractor frame for the inline filter ?
Where is the electric pump located ? Those pulse pumps don't like to suck very high from the tank bottom.

There is no in-line filter, I've checked.
The electric pump is almost as low as the bottom of the tank. With the electric pump not running, I can take the fuel line off after the pump and fuel flows freely through it.

 

[Tinkerer]

Do you have the operators manual or the service manual for your 580K ?
Have you opened the bleeder on the injection pump after the engine dies and determined if in fact there is no fuel coming out of it with the ignition switch on ?
Does fuel flow thru the electric pump with the switch off ?
Is the electric pump outlet going to the mechanical pump ?
Or is it bypassing it ?

 

[micklon223]

Do you have the operators manual or the service manual for your 580K ?
Have you opened the bleeder on the injection pump after the engine dies and determined if in fact there is no fuel coming out of it with the ignition switch on ?
Does fuel flow thru the electric pump with the switch off ?
Is the electric pump outlet going to the mechanical pump ?
Or is it bypassing it ?

Yes I do have a manual. And I have bleed air from the fuel system many times now.
Fuel does flow thru the electric pump even with it off.
The electric pump pushes the fuel into the mechanical lift pump(which may not work) then into the injection pump.
After the tractor has been sitting for more than 24 hours I turn the ignition on and crank the engine. It always starts quick and runs for a second or less then dies. After the engine dies with the ignition on and the electric pump running, I open both air bleed valves(one after the other, starting with the one on the filter housing). I get air from both normally(not much from the filter housing but quite a bit from the one on the injection pump) after the air stops and only fuel with no bubbles is coming out I close the valve and then try to start the engine. It still will not start no-mater how long it cranks without ether.
If the engine is hot or its within like 6 to 8 hours since it last ran it will start and run easily.
It is getting air in the fuel system, I just know it. But I thought if air could get in when sitting, then fuel would leak out when its running, but everything is dry, even after 3 or 4 hours of running.
I don't know where the air could be getting in.

 

[Tinkerer]

Ok. Now we are getting a clearer idea of what is happening.
The air may be coming from the mechanical pump. You could try by-passing it with a short piece of fuel hose that is rated for diesel fuel. That should have been done when the electric pump was installed.
The clicker or vibrating fuel pumps are very good pumps but, they can fail. The ones I have dealt with have a built in check valve. It may be the problem. It is easy to check to determine if it is working .
Are the O rings on the spuds that slide into the fuel filters ?
You could try pressurizing the fuel tank with no more than 15 PSI and look for fuel leaks in the supply lines and fittings.
Have you removed the fuel filler cap after the engine dies and listened for a hissing sound of air rushing in ?
A plugged vent will cause a high vacuum in the tank and prevent fuel from being pumped.
You will definitely be breaking the top piston rings if you start it while with ether.

 

[micklon223]

Ok. Now we are getting a clearer idea of what is happening.
The air may be coming from the mechanical pump. You could try by-passing it with a short piece of fuel hose that is rated for diesel fuel. That should have been done when the electric pump was installed.
The clicker or vibrating fuel pumps are very good pumps but, they can fail. The ones I have dealt with have a built in check valve. It may be the problem. It is easy to check to determine if it is working .
Are the O rings on the spuds that slide into the fuel filters ?
You could try pressurizing the fuel tank with no more than 15 PSI and look for fuel leaks in the supply lines and fittings.
Have you removed the fuel filler cap after the engine dies and listened for a hissing sound of air rushing in ?
A plugged vent will cause a high vacuum in the tank and prevent fuel from being pumped.
You will definitely be breaking the top piston rings if you start it while with ether.

I've got a new mechanical lift pump coming and plan to remove the electric one entirely.
I replaced the fuel filter and water separator and they came with new O-rings.
I think the original fuel cap is gone. The one on it now looks like its from a pickup truck(plastic and it ratchets so you cant over tighten it). Someone also drilled a hole clear through it so air can get in. I cant find an original cap.
I'm also not starting it at all unless I absolutely need it, util I get it starting right.

 

[Delmer]

Until you get this sorted out, turn the key on and bleed the air before starting it if it's been more than six hours. If it starts and stops again, then bleed as you have been, then loosen one injector line at an injector, and crank the engine until it spurts fuel with no bubbles. Tighten that and it should start.

#12 check valve looks like it's the first thing threaded into the tank/frame on the return line so it should be easy to see if it's there or not, even if you have to feel it.

Replace any rubber hose between the tank and the transfer pump. Rubber hoses will leak air all the time but not leak visible fuel.

I'd blow air through the existing transfer pump, even use a garden hose to blow water through, then hook up the supply and see if it pumps fuel. Or if the new one is coming, install it, get rid of the electric pump, use new rubber fuel hose, prime it as you have and the injector line. See how it does the next day.

 

[Willie B]

I have had two 580K. It is a Cummins 4B engine. Case claims it is built by Case, but it is EXACTLY identical to the Cummins 4B in my Dresser dozer.
Both of mine have been stubborn starting when the tank gets down about half. Neither had an auxiliary lift pump, I just kept them near full.

 

[Tinkerer]

micklon; When you install the new mechanical pump leave the lines off of it. Roll the engine over a couple of full revolutions and at the same time put a finger over the inlet port. You will then know if it has much suction power.
If you don't have a remote starter switch you may need help to do that.
The reason is that it is not unusual for the camshaft lobe to be worn down and the pump stroke is shorter.
I have seen lobes worn nearly completely off.
The OEM check valve by the fuel tank shut off valve will certainly be needed after you remove the electric pump.
The in-line filter that is missing was put there to protect the lift pump from getting crap in it. It will also increase the fuel filter life.
I agree with Willlie B, an auxiliary lift pump is not needed.
That was a band-aid fix for a problem that wasn't fixed. IMHO of course.

 

[micklon223]

micklon; When you install the new mechanical pump leave the lines off of it. Roll the engine over a couple of full revolutions and at the same time put a finger over the inlet port. You will then know if it has much suction power.
If you don't have a remote starter switch you may need help to do that.
The reason is that it is not unusual for the camshaft lobe to be worn down and the pump stroke is shorter.
I have seen lobes worn nearly completely off.
The OEM check valve by the fuel tank shut off valve will certainly be needed after you remove the electric pump.
The in-line filter that is missing was put there to protect the lift pump from getting crap in it. It will also increase the fuel filter life.
I agree with Willlie B, an auxiliary lift pump is not needed.
That was a band-aid fix for a problem that wasn't fixed. IMHO of course.

so I'm waiting on parts to come in and I checked my book this morning and I have a different diagram then the one you posted.
Any idea why that might be?
And this is the book the previous owner gave me

 

[Tinkerer]

Yes, I do know why they are different.
Case updated the book and no longer carry a lot of the parts in the original edition that you have.
Things like the addition of the check valve in the fuel line is one of the reasons they often revise parts books and, in the assembly line of the tractor.
Your book is the first edition and has been revised 2 times. The 3rd edition is the one used now.
The 1st two editions are really pretty much worthless for locating replacement parts.
They prolly had so many service calls for issues like you have that they put the check valve in the schematic and parts inventory.
If you noticed the service manual does not have an engine overhaul section. It is a separate book and it also was revised after the 1st edition.
Below is one of the opening pages in the online and printed parts books used for your machine now. AFAIK.