Case 580 B?? Starter Grinding Ring Gear

[DMiller]

Starters do not engage all that far before the contact plate makes up and the motor engages, .060 movement could set it all off.

 

[Cessna49]

DMiller, thank you for the response. Could you explain in a little more detail? I’m not following what you are saying. .060 movement in what could set it all off?

Thanks!

 

[DMiller]

When a Starter rolls in, the coil of the solenoid Pulls the Bendix toward and into the ring gear, it reaches a fixed point of travel but NOT end of travel and the Contact Plate in the Solenoid picks up BOTH terminals. This is spring loaded so the Bendix fork continues to drive the now rotating Bendix into the teeth. Any loss of motion, ground away teeth, float on a crankshaft will allow the motor to energize before enough tooth contact is made up. .060 does not sound much but between normal Teeth Bendix and ring wear, age of starter, settings slip in starter, could be enough

 

[Delmer]

Yes, once the starter is spinning fast, it's not going to engage the ring gear teeth if it hasn't already. That's why the back of the teeth are ground at a bevel, so that the teeth will move slightly to engage as the solenoid moves the starter gear out, and HOPEFULLY before it starts spinning. 0.060" to a carpenter is 1/16" which is half of 1/8" and it looks to me like you have 1/8" wiped off of those ring gear teeth already, plus they're smeared a little round, and a little of a burr on the edge. That combined with what DMiller said, makes it understandable that the starter won't engage, BUT you say it will engage for a second, and the engine turns a bit? before it kicks out, I don't get that. And I've never seen such uniformly ground teeth on a ring gear, so I'm suspicious that there's something serious and unexpected wrong going on here.

 

[Cessna49]

Ok that explanation makes great sense, thank you for breaking that down for me. The starter will engage for a second before it disengages, probably 3/4 of an engine rotation. I am going to start with replacing the solenoid, new battery and check all connections to ensure I have the proper power and a good working starter. If that will not work ill try pouring 24v to the starter and see if it will engage long enough to fire it up. Once I get it started and verify everyone works as it should ill split the tractor and replace that ring gear. It is very odd that the ring gear is worn like it is.

 

[Theweldor]

Also check that the bendix is moving the full lenght of the nose on the starter. A worn pivot pin or worn fork could limit your travel tremendously.

 

[Cessna49]

Thanks Theweldor! I will be checking that as well, also will be seeing if I can adjust how far that Bendix goes out. If I could get another 1/4" possibly even an 1/8 would let me get it started! I only need this to work once haha

 

[Theweldor]

Something odd is going on here. Just don't take anything for granted as you don't know what has been done. When you do find the issue it will most likely be some simple fix.

 

[Cessna49]

I agree, I will keep everyone updated with what I find. I will be tackling this on Wednesday so hopefully Wednesday evening or Thursday morning I will have some good updates... Or a 580B for sale!

 

[Theweldor]

Another thing I thought of and I do not know the answer. I am sure someone would hopefully enlighten me on this subject, But are there different travel lengths on solenoids?

 

[DB2]

What I’ve done in a predicament is to remove the solenoid and shift the Bendix manually and then apply power to the starter.

Might give you that one start you require.

 

[Tinkerer]

Another thing I thought of and I do not know the answer. I am sure someone would hopefully enlighten me on this subject, But are there different travel lengths on solenoids?

I can only speak of Delco Remy starters that I have repaired.
Yes the travel length is specific to the machine it is made to fit. Some of them have a fixed (non-adjustable) length and some are adjustable.
I edited my post to include the info. below
The photo is from a Case service manual and is what I refer to as adjustable. I have worked on several starters like this one.

 

[Delmer]

I wouldn't use 24V. Use as many and as big of jumper cables and jumping vehicles as you'd like, at 12V. Maybe try a separate battery just for the solenoid power, so you're not relying on the wiring and starting batteries to hold in the solenoid.

Or the manual hold in like DB2 described. I could possibly find you a amishized honda belt driven starter that WILL start that thing, if there's any chance at all, and you don't lose your fingers first.

 

[Ronsii]

put some black paint all the way round that pinion gear at least you'll see if it is getting all the way in at all...

 

[Cessna49]

I will check my starter this morning and see if It has the plug to adjust the Bendix travel, that would be great! DB2 I really like the idea of removing the solenoid and manually holding it.. How would this be done properly? Remove the solenoid, use a wire or something to pull the actuating fork thingamajig out so the Bendix is engaged and apply power? Ronsii, I also like your idea to paint the Bendix, you guys are very much appreciated! I hope I can help someone out one day as much as everyone has helped me

 

[DB2]

Yes using a wire would work. Just make sure its a stout one that isn’t going to let the lever disengage until you want it to. You should be able to tell when it’s fully engaged in the flywheel.

 

[Cessna49]

Okay that is my new backup plan incase the new solenoid does not work. I'm excited! In my head I don't see how that cant not work!!

 

[repowerguy]

Try a pickle fork tie rod separator to pry the bendix plunger into the flywheel.

 

[Cessna49]

So how do I power the starter with the solenoid removed? I guess I hadn't thought of that part....

 

[Tinkerer]

Bolt a battery cable to the big post on the starter and another separate cable on the battery. Use the two open cable ends to make the connection.
Doing that will avoid burning up your starter post or the battery post.