Cable vs. hydraulic

[caterpillarRy]

All I've ever heard from anyone but my grandfather is that hydraulic is way better than cable so what are the pros and cons of cable and hydraulic. I'm just looking for the general consensus about which is generally better and all that garbage.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . caterpillarRy. My favourite tractor of all time was a D7 with a cable blade (front mounted PCU) with hydraulic tilt and a set of three tine rippers. Generally speaking I believe the 'advantages' of hydraulic blades are overstated. The latest PCU's before they were phased out were absolutely reliable and cost little to maintain.

I have only run one 'converted' scoop and it was a pain . . . slooow and always blowing hoses. I'm sure it was just that particular unit and obviously most conversions or new units are very satisfactory. One poster on here (tct tractors) seems to like the cable scoops and says in England they are common and popular and folks still buy DDPCU's from Komatsu the only company still making them.

One unique feature of cable gear is that one tractor can do some serious earthmoving.

I have asked on here before how you can run a scoop and rippers with a single 'modern' hydraulic tractor and no one seems to want to tell me. (he grins)

Hope this gets a discussion going.

Cheers

 

[oregon96pd]

By scoop do you mean scraper?

 

[caterpillarmech]

I have seen one cable machine running in 15 years of fixing. The cable machiune looks pretty bullet proof literaly. You don't have any hoses to get hung when clearing. No pumps to wear out or cross contaminate your system. I like hydraulics but you have to be up on system operation to know how to fix them.

 

[caterpillarRy]

There esencially bullet proof only little tiny things break occasionally break but if the side plate of the winch hasn't been tooken off in a while it can be a bitch to fix

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . oregon96pd Sorry about that.

Yes mate, I mean towed scraper, in your talk I think a 'pan' or a 'can'. I think the Pom's call them a 'box' we call them 'scoops'.

Cheers

 

[oregon96pd]

I figured as much, just wanted to make sure Scrub Puller. What would keep a guy from adding another set of valve's to a machine? Or if the blade isn't needed on the scraper duty use the blade control valve, with one extra spool. Not sure if any of these idea's would work or not as I've never been around a dozer pulled pan, I don't work with the antiques road show :tong

 

[John C.]

At one place I worked there were four 14As, one 13A, and one 17A. Three of the 14As had double drums and one was a front unit. The 17A was a front unit and the 13A was a double rear unit. Back then men were men and real cat skinners had deep scars on their hands and maybe arms from working on cable units.

The cable units could be far harder to keep running in the hands of an idiot of which we had a few. To pick the blade up you snapped the clutch control in to prevent slipping. The idiots thought they could feel them in and the clutches burned in a hurry. Changing cable was a pain no matter what and especially bad when the idiots two blocked and snapped the lines. We used cable grease to help the lines last longer and it made a sticky mess out of the machine. Adjusting the clutches and brakes took a procedure and every winch had a personality. You did your adjusting with the engine shut down because a stuck clutch wouldn't feel a thing as it wound you through the sheaves. You started the engines on the pony with the diesel engine fuel off because if the clutch stuck you could throw out the pony clutch and stop the blade from snapping a line. Then you had to slack the brake off and try to stay out of the way of the lines again. The rear double drums were easier to do because of this. The blocks also had to be greased regular or the bearings would crack or stick from heat. Rebuilding one of those units was also a pain as there was always lots of needles and burrs to cut your hands up.

On the other hand we had a couple of old timers that started when horses were the only way to pull a plow, scraper or a log. Those guys could work wonders with all the tricks they knew. Pitch the blade one way and it would dig by itself. Pitch it different and it would cut a super or float beautifully. Those guys did their own adjusting and replacing brakes and frictions was almost non existent.

Trust me, there are plenty of reasons why line machines went the way of the dinosaur. Even my hands have a couple of scars.

 

[Bluetop Man]

a D7 with a cable blade...with hydraulic tilt

LOL, Scrub Puller. Real catskinners back in the day got down and hand cranked the manual tilt with joy. :drinkup

 

[R.D.G013]

LOL, Scrub Puller. Real catskinners back in the day got down and hand cranked the manual tilt with joy. :drinkup

Bin there and done that, learnt on a D8/8r with cable bull blade and logging winch and also been on TD25 B with Cat 80 and Cat 463 towed scrapers, biggest drawback is there is no down pressure which is more of a problem on the dozer as sometimes its handy to be able to push down on the blade specially when u are nose first into a soft spot just being able to push down on the blade sometimes makes all the difference to gettig out or staying stuck and needing a tow out. With the scrapers if the cable breaks with the ejector forward which is usually when it happend spring returned the ejector back towing the cable with it then u had to find the end, cut it off clean and re rope it thru all the sheave blocks back to the PCU, much easier if there is two of u to feed it thru, if the rope run a strand then u would end up with a birds nest of rope somewhere in side the scoop which was a pain to get out, thick leather gloves were allways in the tool box as well as a rope cutter,heavy sticky clay was allways hard on the rope trying to push it out, best way was to pull about a metre of rope thru every couple of days so by the time the rope got up to the which it was nearly worn out, if it broke between the scoop& winch it was a fairly easy fix. The main thing was to keep a good eye on the rope and if it looked damaged or signs of excessive wear tow some more thru before it broke, and dont get slack rope and crossovers and tangles on the winch drum. Thank goodness for the bloke who invented Hydraulics. Cheers RDG013

 

[caterpillarRy]

I was trying to get a conversation going and it seems to have died out

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . caterpillarRy Okay mate I'll stir the pot . . . LOL. Everything said here is absolutely true, there is no doubt hydraulics are more 'user friendly' but really at the end of the day I wouldn't think they are any more effective.

On bulk pushing jobs I have seen cable out push hydraulic . . . it depends on the operator. (To me) the biggest advantage of having hydraulics on both ends of a tractor was getting out of bogs and changing rollers . . . operationaly not so much.

It really pi$$es me off to see blokes jacking up the front of a tractor in a cut . . . fair enough if you're shaving to get down to grade but otherwise if the blade won't bury when you move forward with the control in 'float' . . . the same circumstances as slack cable . . . the ground needs ripping.

I realise a basic hydraulic system as on a dozer these days pretty much are bullet proof but they can fail and with cleanouts and what all can be spendy to fix . . . a good PCU not so much provided parts are available . . . we had a front mounted PCU on an Allis 21 that did over fifteen thousand hours and had never been touched.

Generaly speaking the skills an operator who can run cable gear will be way beyond those who have grown up on juice . . . it was an unspoken rule that the care of the cable was up to the operator . . . if he broke it he fixed it, he also greased the sheaves, fed a bit of new string through as needed and so on.

Take a gander at those scrapers in "Murls Video" running two bowls with the second pan operated by a PCU hanging off the front of the crankshaft . . . the blokes who operated them must have had an empathy and understanding of the feel and sound of machinery way beyond that which could be found on job-sites today.

Cheers.

 

[td25c]

The old cable blade dozers were a blast to operate,fairly trouble free,and would get the job done. My first dozer was a Allis Chalmers hd16 ac that had a cable blade setup.It had a long list of repairs needed when we bought it like needing undercarrige,added rops cab,engine guards etc.We ended up robbing a good undercarrige out out from under an International TD 20 dozer I had as a parts tractor.After we got it lined out it ended up making a pretty good machine.I also added hydraulic tilt to the blade if you notice in the picture you can see the cylinder on the end of the turnbuckle.Used a 12 volt power pack to supply the hydraulics www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200329762_200329762 We made some money with it then eventually bought a 16B . Cable blade VS. hydraulic ? Hypothetically speaking if I was dropped in the middle of nowhere with only limited tools and resources I would take the cable blade hands down. It's kind of like compairing a muzzel loader to a lever-action rifle.Both will do the job,muzzle-loader takes longer to load but if your good it only takes one shot.

 

[caterpillarRy]

Hm the only things I ever saw break on the rear PCUs on the 7s at my grandfathers house was a spring and a brakeband. My grandfather is one of the few left around that can make an old cable machine do anything a new machine can. He also never really messed with the blade angle much and he used them right up into the 90's on some jobs and they did just as good a job as anything else.

 

[caterpillarRy]

By the way what is a sheave is it the pullies in the front that makes the cable runs through to lift the blade?

 

[td25c]

Sounds like your grandad was good hand with the cable blade caterpillarRY:thumbsup.I never had much trouble with the winch itself,had to adjust the bands from time to time. Yes the sheave is the pullies on the tractor and blade.

 

[caterpillarRy]

Grades his back yard with one and does a pretty damn good job especially considering he's 70 and his backyard is about as rocky as it comes.

 

[td25c]

Thats pretty cool caterpillarRY.Your grandad still uses the cable blade d7 and i'm sure he enjoys every bit of it.Heck my dads 68 and he was telling me that 70 is the new 50 Thats good you get to spend time with your grandad and appreciate his skills and knowledge.

 

[D6 Bo]

Until the 1960's all the Cats around here were cable. The Internationals were hydraulic. The consensus was if you are going to buy a Cat get cable and if you are going to buy an IH, get hydraulic. I did own a 1941 IH Td 14 with a cable blade and it was the pits. Later, at different times, I owned 2 D7 3t's and 3 D6 9U's, all with Cat no. 25 rear cable control units. When I owned these dozers I never wished for hydraulic. I don't consider myself an expert, but all my customers were pleased with my work. I could pile brush with very little dirt in the piles and do pretty good at grading lots. With tilt, getting the blade to take the ground was not an issue. However, I do see some advantages of hydraulic such as jacking up the tractor and helping to get unstuck in wet ground.

 

[td25c]

If ya like cable blades member dieseldave has a pretty nice looking old cat d9 www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?12035-First-time-out-on-the-quot-grader