skyking1
Senior Member
that hole is never very good on the minis.
-
Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!
Bought a used 303.5 - Scammed or just Stupid? Or both?
- Thread starter os4ivmb
- Start date
Welder Dave
Senior Member
Might be a lot easier to weld new bushings with the proper size hole on instead of line boring. A drill press would probably turn too fast. As far as the year, maybe they bought it in 2016. It would be almost impossible to prove they grossly misrepresented the machine. Getting a year wrong isn't normally a serious issue but it can be in some rare instances.
Interestingly I just saw a video yesterday about this exact issue. A very rare Kawasaki Z2 motorcycle was sold for a record price of $85,000 at a Mecum auction. It was presented as a 1st year 1974, maybe an early prototype. Seller basically left after it was sold. Closer inspection by some very knowledgeable M/C experts revealed some serious issues. One was the serial number was partly ground and the full number was unreadable. There was also a lip around the engine serial number that wasn't on 1974 models. I think there were some other small issues too. The experts best guess was it was a 1975 and not worth anywhere near as much. Without a full serial number it couldn't be titled either. Mecum contacted the buyer and cancelled the sale. While I think Mecum is a little at fault and should have at least looked at the serial number, I would think the consignor is in some serious, serious trouble for deliberately misrepresenting the bike. $85,000 fraud is nothing to sneeze about. In this case it doesn't look too hard to prove the bike was grossly misrepresented and the consignor gets some serious jail time and/or a big fine. I'm not sure what the punishment is for major fraud.
Interestingly I just saw a video yesterday about this exact issue. A very rare Kawasaki Z2 motorcycle was sold for a record price of $85,000 at a Mecum auction. It was presented as a 1st year 1974, maybe an early prototype. Seller basically left after it was sold. Closer inspection by some very knowledgeable M/C experts revealed some serious issues. One was the serial number was partly ground and the full number was unreadable. There was also a lip around the engine serial number that wasn't on 1974 models. I think there were some other small issues too. The experts best guess was it was a 1975 and not worth anywhere near as much. Without a full serial number it couldn't be titled either. Mecum contacted the buyer and cancelled the sale. While I think Mecum is a little at fault and should have at least looked at the serial number, I would think the consignor is in some serious, serious trouble for deliberately misrepresenting the bike. $85,000 fraud is nothing to sneeze about. In this case it doesn't look too hard to prove the bike was grossly misrepresented and the consignor gets some serious jail time and/or a big fine. I'm not sure what the punishment is for major fraud.
Last edited:
My plan at this point is to bore it out another 10mm, see where that's at, then if that's not enough, do another 10mm. From there it'll be either a 5mm or 10mm wall sleeve with mostly an interference fit with maybe a tack or two just to make sure. I'll try and case harden the inside of the sleeve, in the hopes that if things get weird in the future, the pin takes most of the damage.
Do you mean just taking the factory bushings, centering them in there with the pin and welding them in place? With how tapered out the hole is, I'm not as confident that welding in new ones is the trick. That's a lot of force that'll go on the built up weld and if/when it goes, i'll just have to bore it out larger then. That and welding the bushing may run a pretty good risk of distorting it's ID. It is tempting though as its a super easy job with a mig gun...
Another advantage of boring+sleeving is I can still fit factory grease seals in there
Do you mean just taking the factory bushings, centering them in there with the pin and welding them in place? With how tapered out the hole is, I'm not as confident that welding in new ones is the trick. That's a lot of force that'll go on the built up weld and if/when it goes, i'll just have to bore it out larger then. That and welding the bushing may run a pretty good risk of distorting it's ID. It is tempting though as its a super easy job with a mig gun...
Another advantage of boring+sleeving is I can still fit factory grease seals in there
Last edited:
Welder Dave
Senior Member
There's likely a hardened bushing that's a shrink fit that fits inside the welded on bushing. If the hole is wallowing out way oversize you might be able to cut and grind it to fit a an oversize weldable bushing in and then use a thicker wall hardened bushing inside to fit the new pin. If there's a larger OD dia. bushing on the outside of the stick you could just turn them in a lathe and weld them on after the middle bushing is fixed. A pin on mild steel/weld will wallow out in short order.
Acoals
Senior Member
The way those bores are holed out you are not going to be able to just stuff new bushings in. A bushing is by definition round, and those holes are going to be egg shaped. It just doesn't work when the holes are worn to that point. They need to be bored out.
I saw a guy years ago with that much wear. I told him it needed a bore job, but he wasn't going to go that route. He bought a new pin and bushings, slid them in the bore with the pin in for alignment, then started welding around the outside of the bushings until the gaps were filled. Not the way I would have gone, pure backwoods, but surprising lasted a long time.
Truck Shop
Senior Member
All it takes is money--people will do anything for the right amount of money.
*
A friend that runs a machine shop -his son has a excavating business Ferraro construction-
Moto-Your hole is our goal}. Wanted me to look at a truck for him--1988 T800. Took about
ten minutes and we walked--Hood junk, block cracked on right side covered in JB Weld,
low flow cooling-NT88-not a good engine, and various other issues. I told him to toss the
guy a $1.98 and lets hit the road, this was this last Monday. There are Carpsters everywhere,
easy to spot a two legged carp-fin out the back with rattle snake eyes.
Allan M
Well-Known Member
Fraud is a tough and expensive thing to prove in just about any circumstance. The burden of proof would be on you to show "intent to defraud" which is difficult. The bad news is that you may have been scammed a bit and lost a few thousand dollars. The good news is that you're clearly mechanically skilled and can get that girl fixed and in good working order. In doing so, you'll learn every idiosyncrasy of the machine and have a good workhorse long term. I won't tell you have many times I've been scammed. Clearly, I'm not as smart as I think I am. But, recently, I sold my compact tractor to replace it with another new, more powerful unit. I got an text asking if it was available. When I said yes I got a cashier's check in the mail for $3k over asking under the condition I would pay the transportation company to ship it from my location on the west coast to the east coast. I took the cashier's check (which I thought was good) to the bank. The branch manager shook her head and said it was a phony even though it was drawn on a reputable Chicago bank, a know Chicago bank branch, and funded by a known mid-sized company. I was told that the check would likely bounce but would take as long as 3 weeks before the bank on which it was drawn would discover it as fraud. And, yes, I'd be on the hook to repay the cashier's check amount deposited to my account and I'd be out the tractor and the shipping cost. How is that for dodging a bullet! Most people aren't dishonest--but unfortunately there are a lot of people that are. As noted earlier in this thread there are also a lot of people that sell mechanical things that know very little about them. So, you're not idiot. You're an honest, well-meaning person that may have been scammed a bit or simply sold a machine by someone not in the know. And, if you're like me, if you really want something sometimes you make an impetuous decision and wind up living with the consequences. All in all I don't think you got hurt too bad on this one. Let it go, have a beer, and enjoy life!
oarwhat
Senior Member
That's a very popular scam. Here's one I thought was a scam but the kid was real. Kid makes an offer on an old Oshkosh we had without asking any questions. I told him he's a scam and go away. No he was real and just wanted that model Oshkosh. We get paid and he sends out the trucker "Crazy Charlie". He was crazy alright. Said he can't haul the truck because it has stone in the back and it's overweight. I told him if I get it weighed and it's ok will you haul it? He agrees we get it weighed and he then throws a fit and says stone has to go. We remove most of the stone in the pouring rain and he leaves. I warn the kid he's nuts.
Here's were it it gets crazy. Charlie won't deliver it to the spot the kid wants. The kid meets him and Charlie want's more money for the delay. Get's the kid so upset he tells Charlie to keep the truck!! The kid still paid for the truck and shipping!! Craziest deal ever.
The seller finally returned my calls... when he mistakenly called back thinking I was his mechanic!
Anyway, as expected, I was told to pound sand, noting it was my responsibility and all that.. Though he really stuck on that it was a 2016.... Even though I'd noted Cat had even said it was a '13.. Oh well, at least that's some form of closure there.
I should probably start a new thread on this... but what's people's take on welding build-up and line boring to the factory diameter vs line boring and sleeving to get to factory?
My planned setup for the boring jig is a doozy, but granted I don't try and take huge cuts, should be okay, though machining weld with a HSS cutter can be goofy from my experience... I 3d printed a long tube with the OD being the factory ID of the bore (50mm) and the ID of the OD of my boring bar (1"). It also helps to get an idea of exactly how out-of-round the bore is near the end... If I'm boring out, a 10mm oversize bore (60mm) should get me there.
From there, I have enough good metal in the middle of the bore to fit snug and align my boring bar axially within it. I have 1" pillow block bearings, one that I'll bolt onto a 1/4" end plate, and another that I'll put on the table of a bench drill press with the base removed(picture for reference, no bearing on it yet).
With that, I can run the boring bar through with my insert with the end plate and table on the bar, and while aligned, get those welded to the stick with some angle iron or allthread, making sure at least one of those is far enough away from the exit of the bore to get my alignment insert out.
To get going, I just need to slide the boring bar in, insert a cutter into it and set it for the first cut, then mount the drill press to the table via. the table clamp. The boring bar will be turned down to fit the chuck on the press, so that'll be snugged down and I should be in business. The press only has a few inches of stroke in it's feed, so I'll just need to inchworm using that, backing out, then advancing the entire drill press down the table to then start again.
It aint machining that'll win any awards, but it should do the trick for getting a half respectable bore for less than 100 bucks (not counting the benchtop press that was destined for the scrap heap anyway...)
Anyway, as expected, I was told to pound sand, noting it was my responsibility and all that.. Though he really stuck on that it was a 2016.... Even though I'd noted Cat had even said it was a '13.. Oh well, at least that's some form of closure there.
I should probably start a new thread on this... but what's people's take on welding build-up and line boring to the factory diameter vs line boring and sleeving to get to factory?
My planned setup for the boring jig is a doozy, but granted I don't try and take huge cuts, should be okay, though machining weld with a HSS cutter can be goofy from my experience... I 3d printed a long tube with the OD being the factory ID of the bore (50mm) and the ID of the OD of my boring bar (1"). It also helps to get an idea of exactly how out-of-round the bore is near the end... If I'm boring out, a 10mm oversize bore (60mm) should get me there.
From there, I have enough good metal in the middle of the bore to fit snug and align my boring bar axially within it. I have 1" pillow block bearings, one that I'll bolt onto a 1/4" end plate, and another that I'll put on the table of a bench drill press with the base removed(picture for reference, no bearing on it yet).
With that, I can run the boring bar through with my insert with the end plate and table on the bar, and while aligned, get those welded to the stick with some angle iron or allthread, making sure at least one of those is far enough away from the exit of the bore to get my alignment insert out.
To get going, I just need to slide the boring bar in, insert a cutter into it and set it for the first cut, then mount the drill press to the table via. the table clamp. The boring bar will be turned down to fit the chuck on the press, so that'll be snugged down and I should be in business. The press only has a few inches of stroke in it's feed, so I'll just need to inchworm using that, backing out, then advancing the entire drill press down the table to then start again.
It aint machining that'll win any awards, but it should do the trick for getting a half respectable bore for less than 100 bucks (not counting the benchtop press that was destined for the scrap heap anyway...)
skyking1
Senior Member
Lots of ifs here:
1) If you can lay your hands on a stock bushing, then go that way
2)^ If there is enough meat in the stick for it.
3) If not, weld it up and bore it to factory. Making bushings is another step.
Keep grease in it and whatever you do will be fine.
1) If you can lay your hands on a stock bushing, then go that way
2)^ If there is enough meat in the stick for it.
3) If not, weld it up and bore it to factory. Making bushings is another step.
Keep grease in it and whatever you do will be fine.
I've got two stock bushings -- they are the same OD as that black plastic piece and there's an awfully large amount of daylight around them. I'm getting more okay with the idea of welding buildup and boring it down versus an oversize bore with a sleeve... the latter as you've said is another step.... with more tolerances to hit.. No guarantee too that the sleeves wont pound out/separate over time anyway...
I'd have to figure out another alignment jig though if i go that route.. as that plastic piece wont fit in there once the buildup is done
Truck Shop
Senior Member
He must have come from the midwest-that's where the term is used regularly. But I must say
he obviously has no scruples, { may he be walking down the street whistling a tune-and out
of no where Ronda Rousey b!tch slaps him till he passes out.
Nige
Senior Member
I would say it all depends on how you are planning on doing the welding. A wire feeder off the boring setup to get some nice circular beads would be ideal. If you only have the option weld the bore up by hand then a sleeve would be probably be a better solution. If you can get hold of some liquid nitrogen the sleeve could probably be shrunk by about 3 thousandths per inch of outside diameter which would allow you to slide it straight in when it's cold but would hold it in pretty tight once it warmed up.
My 2c - YMMV.
Welder Dave
Senior Member
You want to use a hardened bushing rather than just build up with weld and bore to the pin size. Mild steel/weld will wear fast especially if the pins are harder. Much better to have the pin wear as it's easy to replace.
My backround is quite diverse.
Tugger2
Senior Member
My 303.5was a similar mess at the stick end. I built the bores up with 7018, set up a boring bar with my magdrill. Used a high speed steel cutter,they are easy to grind to suit those small holes.built up the end faces and touched them up with a flat face cutter. Used Cat bushings and a long pin to fit the thumb from Elliot Fabrications in Edmonton. Made new bosses for the quick change. Made spacer washers out of aluminum bronze to take all side slop out. That was 2 years ago and its still like new .
skyking1
Senior Member
Nice work, Tugger. I like that implementation of the mag drill.