Attempting to resurrect Cat 3013C

[toomanyedwards]

Hi all,
I'm attempting to get a Cat 3013C that's been sitting for ~5 years running again. I've got it turning over, but won't start. Looking through the forums seems like a common issue. So far I've:

1) Drained fuel tanks and filled with fresh fuel with seafoam
2) Replaced batteries and a bad starter
3) Replaced glow plugs and verified circuit and plugs
4) Primed fuel filter and fuel pump

My guess at this point is potentially a fuel delivery issue, but I get fuel coming out of the fuel filter vent and fuel pump banjo as expected when priming so that side looks good. I hear the fuel solenoid click when I turn the key to run so I think that's good. What's the best way to verify I have good pressure on the high side of the fuel pump? I read the old thread: https://www.heavyequipmentforums.co...rkins-cat-3cyl-engine-wont-start.66080/page-2 and someone suggested pulling an injector to check if it's spraying. Makes sense to me, but I'm not sure how to just pull one injector on this engine since it looks like all hard lines from the fuel pump to the injectors. Any thoughts or ideas for next steps here are greatly appreciated!

 

[kshansen]

Any chance of a full S/N to help look for info on SIS?

The only machines I'm seeing a 3013C in are some vibratory compactors then there are a couple industrial engines.

You posted this in the Skid Steer forum so does that mean it is in a skid steer?

Just as a first step below is attached the priming procedure I'm finding just to be sure you have it right.

When cranking over and not starting is there any smoke out the exhaust? If not smoke I would think you are not getting fuel to the injectors. I'd expect a bit of white smoke while cranking.

You say you replaced the glow plugs, have you confirmed you are getting good voltage to them?

You could remove the fuel lines from the injection pump to the injectors and see if any fuel is coming out the pump while cranking. Might not be much but a little squirt from each one in the firing order would be encouraging!

Also attaching a test procedure for the transfer pump, now you don't really need that fancy test set up they show just a pressure gauge that will read the pressure the say you should have. Of course that assumes you have the mechanical pump I see some use an electric pump.

If it is the mechanical pump some of those have a screw holding the top on and there might be a screen under that cover the line hooks to.

 

[toomanyedwards]

Thanks for the reply. This is on an industrial zero turn mower. Posting here since I've seen other posts on this engine here. Glow plugs are definitely working. They're brand new and I've pulled them and verified they all glow when the glow switch is on. Zero smoke coming out of the exhaust which is what makes me think fuel delivery issue at or after the injector pump. I've haven't found much info on the CAT 3013C, but as I understand it this is basically a Perkins 403D-15 and I've found these handy manuals that I am following:

Perkins 403D-15 Operation and Maintenance Manual:
http://www.hardydiesel.com/diesel-generators/dl/Perkins-400D-Owners-manual.pdf

Perkins 403D-15 Testing and Adjusting Manual:
https://www.absolutegenerators.com/...e_System_Operations_Testing_and_Adjusting.pdf

As I understand it, since there's a transfer pump on this engine, there's no hand priming pump on this thing. I've followed the priming procedure for an engine with a transfer pump as described in the docs and that seems ok. I get fuel from the filter vent and injector pump vent as expected. It's just me working on this thing so I even added a remote start switch so I can close the vents while the engine is cranking just to make extra sure I'm not sucking in air at the vents. I can hear the fuel solenoid click when the ignition is in the run position so think that that's working, but am going to pull it verify for sure. Next I suppose I'll pull the fuel lines from the injectors as you suggest. If I pull the fuels lines and/or injectors are there any seals I'd need to replace at that point? If so, any idea for a source? Thanks again for the help on this one. This has been frustrating, but also a good learning experience as this is the first diesel I've worked on.

 

[kshansen]

Next I suppose I'll pull the fuel lines from the injectors as you suggest. If I pull the fuels lines and/or injectors are there any seals I'd need to replace at that point? If so, any idea for a source? Thanks again for the help on this one. This has been frustrating, but also a good learning experience as this is the first diesel I've worked on.

Just wondering after I wrote the following, is there a S/N tag on this engine, might give me some better info going from that, just want to be as sure as I can that the info I give is accurate!

The lines should not have any seals, nozzles do have a washer/seal down in the head. Attaching the "Install injectors" info.

Also attaching the parts break down for the pump and injector line, however I'm not 100% sure it is the one for your engine as your S/N does not show as other than a Vibrating roller engine. Could be they are the same. The "gaskets" as Cat calls the sealing washer at the end of injector are only 88 cents so not a major problem if they are wrong when you pick them up at Cat.

I did see a picture of a primer pump, looks like what I would see on an outboard motor fuel line, not sure if your machine has one hide some where.

Any chance this is a Ferris Zero Turn? Seems I recall seeing one with a Cat yellow engine parked in the weeds at the local dealer.

 

[toomanyedwards]

This is on a 2006 Hustler Super Z: https://manualzz.com/doc/7532945/hustler-super-z-diesel-parts-manual I'll get the S/N off the engine hopefully this evening or tomorrow. I'm working on this thing on the side and it takes me about an hr to get there as it's currently sitting on a farm. Page 79 of this manual describes the priming procedure for an engine with a transfer pump: http://www.hardydiesel.com/diesel-generators/dl/Perkins-400D-Owners-manual.pdf . That's definitely what this thing has. No hand pump or bulb. Definitely appears to be priming correctly as far as I can tell so that doesn't appear to the issue, but I could be wrong. I see the torque for the injectors in the pages you sent me, but don't see torque for the nuts attaching the fuel lines to pump or injectors. Any idea what these should be torqued to? Thanks again!

 

[kshansen]

I see the torque for the injectors in the pages you sent me, but don't see torque for the nuts attaching the fuel lines to pump or injectors. Any idea what these should be torqued to? Thanks again!

Glad to help!

Attaching the Remove and install for the lines. Thought they were not going to give a torque for the preesure lines but it is down near the bottom of the last page.

 

[toomanyedwards]

Awesome! Thank you!!! I'm looking forward to seeing if I'm getting any fuel out of the injector pump. If I am, then I guess the next steps would be pulling the injectors. Seems unlikely all 3 injectors would be bad and I wouldn't get any smoke, but the thing has been sitting for years so I suppose it's possible. If I do end up pulling the injectors, I might as well do a compression test at that point I would think. I couldn't find any info on the appropriate compression gauge adapter for these engines. Do you have any pointers to one? The last thing I want to do is mangle the injector port threads. Also, I read that it's a good idea to ream the carbon out of the glow plug ports when you replace the plugs, but again couldn't find an appropriate reamer and didn't want to risk mangling the glow plug port threads either. Any pointers for this? Thanks again. I'll keep you posted on progress here and post pics and/or video when I can.

 

[kshansen]

Still looking on the reamer but did find the spec's on compression test, I'll attach the instructions.

The only thing is I got a scare when I looked up the adapter the 3013C engine uses to test compression. From one of the papers I sent you I see where the 3013C is also called a C1.5. The price Cat quotes me for the adapter is $308.00. I think I would be checking around if you know any farm mechanics who may work on Perkins might be able to borrow one.

 

[toomanyedwards]

I made it down to our farm briefly this afternoon after work. Just had time to clean the engine up a bit to prep for pulling the fuel lines hopefully later this weekend. The serial number of engine is: 31301905 Looking forward to finding out soon if I'm getting anything out the fuel pump. Will keep you posted. Thanks again!

 

[Birken Vogt]

You can see how easy it is to just remove all the fuel lines completely and see if the pumps are pumping. Those 4 bolts remove the pump body, I think you need to remove the shutdown solenoid first though.

 

[DIYDAVE]

You can loosen the inj lines, at pump, to see if you have fuel pumping. If you do, move to injectors, and see if you have it there. Pump is real easy to pull, 4 bolts, remove solenoid, 1 little bugger of a hairpin, to remove pump from rack, to remove the pump. Don't lose or bend up the shim gasket, as that sets the timing...

 

[thepumpguysc]

You guys got this down..
DONT worry about the injectors just yet.. Grab your 17mm wrench & bust open the lines going from the inj. PUMP, TO the injectors.. Loosen/remove them AT the injectors..
Remove the shut off solenoid to the left of the inj. pump.. looks like a small beer can. the silver thing..
NOW try to start it & look for fuel squirting out of the lines AT the injectors..
GOT FUEL??
IF NOT.. reach into the hole where the shut off sol. WAS.. w/ a hook scribe or cut off coat hanger in your case.. lol.. & push or pull slightly on the control rack..
The control rack is what allows the fuel to come out of the inj. pump..
Once you get that freed up.. spin the engine until u get fuel squirting out the lines..
IF it does squirt out.. MAKE SURE they're ALL squirting.. if 2 of the 3 are working, no bueno.. they ALL have to squirt.. but atleast your getting somewhere..
Post back & let us know.

 

[DIYDAVE]

One other thing that lil bustard pump really can squirt, so eye protection is in order, when the lines are offa the pump. Ask me how eye know...

 

[kshansen]

Glad some more have been chiming in on this one. As I have no direct knowledge for the Percapillar engine I flt a bit out of my comfort zone.

I even almost passed it by as at first I thought it was a post by someone else who was resurrecting a dead Cat!

 

[toomanyedwards]

Well here's an update. The adventure continues. Not a great day. I removed the fuel lines from the injector pump and no fuel came out as I cranked the engine. I actually saw this as positive since possibly the issue is just a bad solenoid. Sooooo, next I attempted to take off the solenoid to test it, *but* it sheared off in the block as shown below. Major bummer. So now I need a plan of attack to extract the rest of solenoid from the block. Heat probably a bad idea since this is on the fuel pump. So, my current plan it to try penetrant and then an impact wrench with something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Alden-8430P-Grabit-Damaged-Extractor/dp/B000H6PM32 I actually don't expect this work as it seems *very* stuck. Any other recommendations on a way to get this thing out?

 

[thepumpguysc]

Remove the washer.. its only there to keep it from weeping engine oil.
The threads are "straight".. It should come out w/ your fingers.. or some vice grips..
Don't be afraid to use alittle heat.. NOT the BIG Blue Wrench but a small handheld plumbers bottle, will getcha where ya need to go..
Just keep in mind, theres a small amount of engine oil behind that screw/solenoid..
Take the OIL FILL CAP off & watch for smoke..
THATS an easy fix.. WACK the hellouta it w/ a hammer to loosen it up & go to town..

 

[thepumpguysc]

That's the "strange" {kool} thing about fuel injection Hansen.. The fuel systems are all the same..
I just happen to be fortunate enough in my 30+ years in the game, to have worked on'm all..
Cat NOR Perkins made that fuel system.. its a Zexel, made in Japan.. Kubota{mainly}, Mahindra, Kioti,
Bob Cat, MasseyFerg. New Holland, the list goes on & on, use THAT fuel system..
CATaPERK/PerkaPillar just threw their name on it.. & everybody runs when they see that tag.. Even the parts guys say, OH..your gonna have to go to Cat to get THAT information..
& the Cat guys go, OH.. your gonna have to go to Perkins to get THAT information.. Lol
& neither one is right..
I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the solenoid cost about a Grand thru either one of those guys.??
& you can get it NEW on ebay for about 100.00.. Lol
I cant say w/ any certainty that I've ever worked on that machine.??
BUT.. I know THAT fuel system .. doesn't matter who's name is on it..

 

[Nige]

Digressing here .......... but it wouldn't be HEF without threads going off-topic.
On the lines of what pumpguy has been saying, I recall years ago the outfit I was working at the time for had a fleet of Ford on-highway trucks powered by Perkins V8 motors. One day I asked the supervisor why we bought Perkins parts for the engines (those things got in-framed for fun, we got to the stage where we could almost do one overnight) where everything else was bought from the Ford dealer irrespective of who manufactured it. We made some enquiries and discovered that engine parts in a Ford box were priced at a little over half the cost of the identical parts in a Perkins box so we switched to buying engine parts from Ford just like we did with everything else. Someone commented aftwerwards that Perkins must have an extremely expensive cardboard box supplier.......

 

[thepumpguysc]

I cant say I've ever had to replace one of those solenoids.. BUT they usually have the manuf. part # stamped into it.. & its not Cat or Perkins, hell, its not even Zexel if I remember correctly.. Lol
I worked on a New Holland a week or 2 ago & it had THE EXACT SAME set-up..
It was funny, the customer bought 1 NEW injector thru NH & it cost him 165. & change.. I rebuilt ALL 3 of his existing injectors w/ brand new tips for 150.00 total.{50.00 each}. Lol
Just goes to show you the cost difference between the middle man & the manuf..

 

[thepumpguysc]

I would call that a successful day.. At least you don't have to wonder if the solenoid is bad.??
If it makes you feel any better.. you could say, YES it DEFINATLY was bad.. cuz it broke when you tried to take it out..{lol}
Once you get the threads outa the hole, re-read post #12..
IF you get fuel out of the lines & get the brilliant idea to hook them back up & fire it off.??
REMEMBER.. You have no electric shut off..{key}
There IS a manual shut off tho.. the little lever in post #9.. to the right of the steel inj. lines..
The engine will not start, as long as the lines are not hooked up..
Just remember, things CAN go sideways quick with a stuck rack.. have some way to shut the engine down..
Cutting off the air is the quickest.. have a board close by to shove over the intake.. or as my buddy used to do.. cram your belly over it.. Lol..
DONT use anything cloth.. it'll get sucked in.. & your hand will usually only slow it down..
Let us know how it goes..