Any seasoned wrenches on CTLs? CAT 299D, got a few issues.

[Tree Mulcher]

Unfortunately, I have experienced all of the issues you are experiencing.

I will start with the boom arms jumping around as this may also be the cause of the bucket out of level (most likely the arms are bent).
Lift cab and check the retaining ring part number 4s-5875. this is located on the lower pin of the vertical lift link. If this pin comes out in operation usually with the arms up high, you will have a very bad day. I have had both the retainer rings come out and had the whole pin come out. The retainer rings are junk in my opinion. I have had some pins machined to take a snap ring in place if the retainer that disappears and threaded so a cap can be bolted to the end of the pit to keep the pin from coming out. When the retainer is missing the boom arms will jump side to side as you raise and lower the arms.

The unlevel lifting may be caused by missing retainer rings as described above. If not, you likely have bent arms. No big deal just bend the other side down to level it side to side. Find a tree or concrete you can try to lift with the corner of the high side. you may need to work at it, but you can usually bend them straight.

The lack of fine control is normal in the lift arms. the work around if fine grading is to use the bucket tilt for fine adjustments. At idle these machines don't have good control. I don't like grading with cat machines because of this. C model machines were worse. You may have other issues but hard to assess without the machine in hand.

FYI I would not classify myself as a wrench but instead an unfortunately highly experienced operator.

 

[fastline]

Hmm, some of my focus has been studying the geometry of the vertical lift system. Would you happen to have a pic of the suspect pin you describe? Would this be the somewhat hidden link bar behind the main boom? Sits just behind the cab but think access to that pin is actually in the engine bay area, not under the cab?

 

[Tree Mulcher]

Correct about the hidden bar behind the cab. Access is from under the cab. It's on the cab side of the firewall. This is the lower end of the vertical lift linkage wen the arms are up.

Have somebody watch that pin when raising and lowering. If it moves in and out, you found the problem. If not, I would still check it for the retainer.

Sometimes this is evident by the vertical lift link bar rubbing the main boom arm. With the arm up look for wear/paint damage on the main boom where it overlaps the vertical linkage bare in the lowered position.

It's your lucky day I have a machine here that had the problem and has been repaired.

To check for the retainer, expect to dig through a lot of grease and dirt.

One pic shows the pin. This pin walked out when the retainer failed, bending the pin. Had pin replaced in the link. Welds were too tall and rubbed arm. Ground weld down resulting in the bare metal you see.

Other pic shows the wear on the boom arm from making contact with the linkage after retainer failed.

Good luck

 

[fastline]

Correct about the hidden bar behind the cab. Access is from under the cab. It's on the cab side of the firewall. This is the lower end of the vertical lift linkage wen the arms are up.

Have somebody watch that pin when raising and lowering. If it moves in and out, you found the problem. If not, I would still check it for the retainer.

Sometimes this is evident by the vertical lift link bar rubbing the main boom arm. With the arm up look for wear/paint damage on the main boom where it overlaps the vertical linkage bare in the lowered position.

It's your lucky day I have a machine here that had the problem and has been repaired.

To check for the retainer, expect to dig through a lot of grease and dirt.

One pic shows the pin. This pin walked out when the retainer failed, bending the pin. Had pin replaced in the link. Welds were too tall and rubbed arm. Ground weld down resulting in the bare metal you see.

Other pic shows the wear on the boom arm from making contact with the linkage after retainer failed.

Good luck

I think we are well on the hunt! Glad I found ya! 100% those links are contacting the boom arms on both sides. I noted immediately that those links seem to move in and out way too much.

Question, do you happen to have any pics of these apart, or have PNs for that link? I am trying to wrap my head around what they did, but appears the actual pin is a welded pin in that link?

Lots more questions really. How do you get that link out? Was bending obvious? Is this what is likely causing the asymmetry between sides? One is lower than the other? Bent pin?

I'd like to learn more on your modification. I am a machinist. I can get my head around all that. I sure hope CAT didn't expect something like a snap ring to handle any thrust load?

 

[Tree Mulcher]

Try this link.

https://parts.cat.com/AjaxCATPartLookupResultsView?catalogId=10051&serialNumber=hp700216&requestType=3&link=FdhP0GGRZ%2F9fKQnlTV7flpgPEcxuiBeWyshGWnEpSbzeIrz0SVFteBBvA2cZjep%2B%2B9ZdNT6Qf7r1%2BoxeJg9eQtaZwRONACSmvrS8If0jAGg%3D&langId=-1&storeId=21801

 

[Tree Mulcher]

The lower pins are welded into the link. The upper pins are removable though sometimes needing the help of a blue flame wrench.

The modified machine will have the cab up in the next few days. I will try to get pics then.

This has been a repeat problem on multiple machines driving the modifications. Unfortunately, some of the mods made sense on paper but did not fit into the space when installed. additional mods got differed.

Machining the grove larger to take a snap ring in place of the retainer is a step up.

A snap ring is a major upgrade from the junk cat uses to retain these pins in my experience.

The asymmetry as you call it could be caused by missing retainers or bent booms. Ignore the booms for now. Fix the pin problem then reevaluate after.

If your booms still function you probably don't have a bent pin. with a bent pin the pin has walked its way out or nearly out and the problem is obvious. The arms likely don't function at that point.

Every other brand of machine I have ran was better designed in this area then cat.

 

[Tree Mulcher]

In referencing your problems with rollers. I have been testing grease in place of oil in rollers. So far, no issues.

Most of my roller issues started with a seal failure. Grease may be my answer. Your climate is drastically different than mine though.

 

[fastline]

How do I get to that level of detail with CAT parts? Your link gives great detail in which it appears the bushings are what are welded into the link arms, and the pins come in from behind? I have reached back there to feel and thought "this will be fun".

I will say that I remain confident either a geometrical problem exists in the boom system, possible air in the loader arm cylinders, or something in this category. One side lifts before the other, one side is higher, and those links seem to move around a LOT in the first few feet of bucket lift.

But with your referenced link, it really appears there is nothing that actually arrests thrust on the front most pins of those links? That is sort of how I am seeing it. The bushing is welded into the link arm, and the pin comes in from the back so really nothing to keep those two together?

 

[Tree Mulcher]

parts.cat.com

Enter serial number hit search then enter part to start search

There was a cd with the parts book on it in the pouch on the back of the seat when the machine left the factory. It may still be there.

The diagram in the link sucks. Part 21 is the retainer. There are no bushings shown in this diagram for the problem pins. Those show up with the main frame parts.

The problem pin is welded into the link.

 

[Tree Mulcher]

The diagram has out right errors in it. I don't know how to draw on the diagram and post like Nige does. Part 5 and 21 are not drawn. There is a pin shown next your problem pin without an identifying number that should not be on the drawing.

 

[fastline]

I am going to work on getting better pictorials for our machine in CAT but I am curious, if you look at the link you shared, #13 is the link, but in the lower one, you can see a pin roughly aligned with that link pin, which is confusing the hell out of me. When I feel behind the frame, I can feel that flagged pin and bolt that is shown, so I am confused a bit.

 

[fastline]

The diagram has out right errors in it. I don't know how to draw on the diagram and post like Nige does. Part 5 and 21 are not drawn. There is a pin shown next your problem pin without an identifying number that should not be on the drawing.

LOL, that is the exact pin in question. Seems to be a "pin stack" by the drawing. Obviously your description is starting to make more sense, but is there no bushing in the machine frame? If that pin is bent, I would think that bushing is trash by now.

Any thoughts on this causing the loader system to be uneven?

 

[Tree Mulcher]

There is a bushing just not on this parts drawing. The bushing for this hole shows up on the main frame drawing.

The link I sent is from the cat parts website but with my serial number not yours.

 

[oarwhat]

WOW talk about finding the right guy to help. Fastline you might want to buy Tree Mulcher lunch or something. HEF sure can be a lifesaver at times.

 

[Tree Mulcher]

LOL, that is the exact pin in question. Seems to be a "pin stack" by the drawing. Obviously your description is starting to make more sense, but is there no bushing in the machine frame? If that pin is bent, I would think that bushing is trash by now.

Any thoughts on this causing the loader system to be uneven?

Fix the pins then reevaluate.

 

[fastline]

As I examine more closely, one of the link pin retainers is certainly sheared right now and smoothed up enough that you can't even tell there ever was a retainer. That will probably prove tricky to get out.

When I visited the machine, I had the arms sitting on blocking to relax the hydros. The suspect link was both loose and pulled away from the machine a good 3/4" or otherwise making contact with the lift cylinder. I tried to smack it back in but it simply will not go and obvious something in the geometry is not happy because that link does not align with the chassis. The rear of it is kicked out.

But the second I start trying to lift, the link seems to pull back in. Super odd behavior but I suspect if I try to install a retainer in this state, it will just shear again because something in the geometry is not happy.

I have concluded there is a tweak in the loader frame and I have a plan to try to put it back with some chains and jacks so I can control the move. I am starting to think I need to make this move before trying to do anything else because it seems to be messing with the kinematics. I sort of wonder if the rear pin is the one that may be bent, I simply don't know yet.

It does almost appear the bushings for that link in the machine frame are actually heim joints?

Either way, it seems I have no choice but to tweak the loader frame back before I can do anything else. It just lifts very odd and that suspect link moves in and out a bunch.

 

[Tree Mulcher]

Can you get pics of what you think is bent?

 

[fastline]

Can you get pics of what you think is bent?

Honestly, NO! I can't even really tell what is bent, but I know one loader arm sits lower than the other and both arms are slightly off center when compared to the tracks. They hug one side of the machine.

I am still just trying to reel in what I am seeing or I guess not seeing.

 

[Tree Mulcher]

Fix the pins first then reevaluate before you address the booms. You may find the booms need nothing once the pins stop sliding in and out.

 

[fastline]

Well...... That link has to come out. The retainer ring groove is jacked up from shearing the old one and I have no room to do much. Fought long enough trying to pick out the ring. I will probably just do a mod in that groove to accept a more beefy retainer.

But in studying geometry, I think I know what is maybe going on, which is that axial play is apparent in all joints, shims needed. The extra play I think allows the link retainer to get overloaded.

No question the arms are tweaked though. I took a stab at the repair but as I suspected, I was just picking up the front of the machine with our jacks rather than bending the loader back. It will take many tons to do it. I really prefer smooth jacking over abusive bouncing on things which usually leads to poor results.

I am curious how you went at removing that link? I think how I want to handle it is walk machine to a tree and raise boom high enough to get good access, and chain the boom to the tree so it is arrested both vertically and horizontally. I don't know how it might try to move but I do know when the hydraulics relax with bucket rested either on stops or a stump, that link is loose. It appears they put a bolted cap into that rear pin, best I can tell. The diagrams don't help much so I get we just get wild and see what happens.