A few projects I have done recently

[CM1995]

Hence the C for "compact" track loader in CTL, maybe? :beatsme

Haha, smart ass.:tong

Kinda...but these dang rubber tracks and loading trucks while looking through the roof leave something to be desired.

I have been harping on the true costs of CTL's in relation to the undercarriage per hour true cost.

Case in point -

Had to buy a rubber track a week or so ago for the T250, $1100. 2 rear rollers $300 each.

My Cat PSR quoted new pads and bolts/nuts for the D5G. $2700.

If I were to replace both tracks on the T250 would be $2200. $2700 to replace the pads and hardware on the D5G, $500 difference. No other undercarriage components are included on either machine. Now this doesn't take into consideration the track chains on the D5 as a new rubber track includes it's "chain".

However, look at the difference in hours one gets between the two. A rubber track will last (hopefully - I have seen these numbers in the past) 500-600 hours, although I have had very bad luck with rubber tracks over the last 3 years, going through 7 on the T250. No change in the operating environment or the types of jobs it does. The problem we have been having is breaking the cords, where the T-bone starts to bulge and creates a knot on the outside of the track. When this happens, just run it to failure as the track is toast.

$2200 for two tracks for the T250 and assume 500 hours, that's $4.40 per hour. It's been a while since I could get 500 hours out of a track but I have in the past. In reality, went through 7 tracks on the T250 in 500 hours. Now 2 of those tracks were old and worn so they can be taken out of the equation for an accurate comparison. That still leaves 5 tracks in 500 hours at a cost of $1100 a piece, $5500 total cost and $11 per hour of operation just for tracks.

I had the undercarriage measured by the PSR on the D5 a couple of weeks ago. Most worn component was the left track side at 62%, that's at 4400 hours.

For the sake of comparison, let's say the D5 gets another 2000 hours out of the total undercarriage before the most worn component the chains, need to be replaced. Estimates to replace the entire UC on the D5 is in the $15000 range. That's roughly $2.35 per hour - $15K/6400 hours. Now the pads on the D5 need to be replaced at the moment so add another $2700 to $15k for a total of $17,700, as this cost needs to be accounted for and assuming the pads replaced now would be worn out at 6400 hours - the $15k includes pads at the time of total replacement. That would bring the hourly operating cost to $2.77 per hour.

Now I have replaced the pads twice on this machine already and I don't remember the actual cost but let's assume it was $2700 each time. That's an additional $5400. Add the $5400 to the $17,700 which is $23,100 divide by 6400 hours - $3.61 per hour.

Neither cost comparison includes labor to R&R, it's materials only. So in closing my actual costs for undercarriage between the two machines so far is $4 an hour for the D5 and $11 for the T250. This is still not an accurate comparison as I didn't include the other components of the undercarriage on the T250 that will need to be replaced some time in the future but gives one an idea of the true costs of a CTL. If we can achieve historical numbers on the life of a CTL track (500 hours and not this machine) then the operating costs between the D5 and T250 are comparable, however the past 3 years have proved otherwise.

I just want to let people know of the true costs involved in running a CTL. I love the T250 and goes to almost every job, as it's handy as a shirt pocket but one has to analyze the true operating costs of every piece of iron you own.

 

[390eric]

Wow that is a hell of a comparison there CM. I love to see that side of things, I just sit in the seat. And thats just for the tracks, per hour, not including everything else that wears.

 

[CM1995]

Wow that is a hell of a comparison there CM. I love to see that side of things, I just sit in the seat. And thats just for the tracks, per hour, not including everything else that wears.

Thanks 390. :drinkup

The CTL rubber track comparison is only for the rubber tracks per hour, I haven't had to replaced any other UC components on it so I don't have a cost basis.

CTL's are handy little buggers and have their place but one needs to know what it cost them to operate one of these, in order to charge accordingly.

There are many more factors to consider such as purchase price and related financing/depreciation costs associated with a more expensive machine (initially) such as a D5G compared to a T250. Those costs are real as well and should be factored into the hourly O&O costs.

Now I have calculated my costs from my own experience and that will be different for other owner/operators as there are many variables.

 

[JBGASH]

CM, I concur with you on the CTL, I seem to be replacing undercarriage components about as often as you are on my 864G, it is by far the most costly to operate, but we would be lost without it. My original tracks lasted till 1200 hrs now we are lucky to get 500 hrs from the replacement ones we have been getting.

 

[lumberjack]

Wouldn't OEM tracks be the way to go? Granted I'm new to CTL ownership, I only put 250 hours on my first CTL, 58 so far on its replacement (both bought new), but if my OEM tracks make it 1k hours, I figure I'll go back with OEM tracks.

 

[JBGASH]

I am going to buy OEM the next time..

Wouldn't OEM tracks be the way to go? Granted I'm new to CTL ownership, I only put 250 hours on my first CTL, 58 so far on its replacement (both bought new), but if my OEM tracks make it 1k hours, I figure I'll go back with OEM tracks.

 

[CM1995]

The Bobcat OEM are Bridgestone or were. I was able to get 500-600 out of the OEM on a T190 I bought new in 2003/4, a little less on the 2005 T250 and the current T250 had aftermarket tracks when I got it.

The Bridgestone tracks run just shy of $2K a piece. Unfortunately, I have never been able to get 1K hours out of any rubber track - except for the mini-ex but that's a different animal.

 

[CM1995]

Current job we are on. 3 acres of clearing and grubbing, 4K CY of dirt to move, 400' of 12" squish pipe and 18" RCP. Stone driveway and building pad.

The property has planted plantation pines, easy to clear but aggravating at the same time. Clearing the silt fence line, the silt fence can be seen in the background. I have a very efficient system for putting in class 1 (metal post, wire backed) silt fence if anyone is interested. Me and 1 guy cleared the line and installed 330' in one day.

This was day 1 -



The property line and clearing limits were clearly marked for a change.



The upper portion of the property where the building is going was an old ball park. Cleared and ready to strip what little topsoil was there.



We were on a deadline to get the brush burned and in this county if you want to burn you have to have an air curtain, a pit and an inspection with an $85 fee. All of the burners locally were rented. Called Cat Rental as they did carry them and my rental guy said they no longer carried them - the machines burned up too easily - go figure! Nothing parties like a rental I guess..:beatsme

Finally I found a rental machine from the manufacturer in Tifton, GA. That is a 5 hour one way trip. That was two long days going to get it and taking it back. Taking a break at a rest stop on I-65.



The air burner set up in the back corner of the property. Inspection went well and we were cleared to burn.

 

[pafarmer]

I would have a great interest in your silt fence setting technique...that's a lot of fence for two men to set in a days time. Very interested.

 

[CM1995]

I would have a great interest in your silt fence setting technique...that's a lot of fence for two men to set in a days time. Very interested.

Here's how we do it -

Lay out where the fence is going if it's not laid out already. Usually it is or is easy to determine.

4' trencher on the T250 and trench a 6-9" deep trench or whatever the spec's call for.

Drop trencher, grab bucket. While you're trenching have your helper load the T-posts into the bucket.

Go along the trench with the skid and have the helper place the T-posts in the trench, push the post down with the corner of the bucket.

When the posts are in, take a 3-4' long cheater bar and run a chain through it. Thread the cheater bar and chain through the roll of wire. Attach the chain to the steps or other part of the upper bucket, allowing for 2' or so of slack so the roll will hang low enough below the cutting edge of the bucket when raised. Use the teeth on the bucket to the keep the chain holding the wire spaced far enough apart so it won't bind.

Unroll the first couple of feet of wire and have your helper hold it as you back up along the trench. This saves a lot of back-breaking time in rolling the wire out. Once you have a manageable section of wire out (50-70') start flipping the wire into place and tie with the aluminum ties to the T-posts.

Keep going until the wire is rolled out.

Step back to the beginning and unroll the fabric. I don't put the fabric on the skid device as it's usually much easier to unroll. Attach fabric to wire and posts and backfill the trench.

We use the skid bucket to carry the posts, wire, fabric, hog rings and tools to where we need them.

No manual digging, pounding posts or carrying and unrolling wire. I had an old contractor tell me one time that lazy people make the best operators, as they will figure out how to complete the task with the machine and the least amount of physical labor.

Have an old skid bucket at the shop that is toast, thinking of rigging it up with a platform out front to carry more supplies and an "unroller" so to speak on the front. A 2-3" piece of pipe welded up with a hinge to swing out to load the roll of wire on so we don't have to chain it up. A bigger platform would also allow compartments to carry posts, hog rings and tools.

On a side note -

It drives me crazy to watch those "backyard renovation" shows where they are taking out 4" concrete patio slabs. They have a skid and plenty of room work to break it up with the machine yet they lift a corner of the slab and pound it with sledgehammers in order to break it up. Work smarter, not harder..:cool2

 

[CM1995]

Burner set up and operational. It took me many gallons of diesel and effort to get it going as the material was very green. I had an old backhoe tire I could've put in the bottom to really get it going like the old days but I knew I would be put under the jail if I did that.



Yes, the material is overloaded in the trench. Yes, it's green and not burning well. Yes, the inspector did show up the last day of burning season and told me "You know that's a violation". "Yeah I know" - I said. She was cool and understood we were under the gun and didn't write me up, said she didn't want to deal with the paperwork..



Hauling the manifold out from the burn pit.



Hauling the burner out to hitch up to my pickup.

 

[OldandWorn]

Thanks for updating your thread CM. Reading about air burners at the moment. Never heard of the contraption before :beatsme

 

[CM1995]

Thanks for updating your thread CM. Reading about air burners at the moment. Never heard of the contraption before :beatsme

Don't take my photos as an example of how they should be operated..

:tong

 

[OldandWorn]

Don't take my photos as an example of how they should be operated..

:tong

No worries CM....just trying to figure out where the tires go?

The ones I'm seeing have like a big dumpster that the debris gets loaded into.

 

[CM1995]

No worries CM....just trying to figure out where the tires go?

Disregard the tire comment, that was a time long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away..

ones I'm seeing have like a big dumpster that the debris gets loaded into.

Those are pretty slick, expensive though. Those units would be very handy on small clearing jobs where one could get permission to use it. Drop it off a roll-off truck, burn the debris and pick it back up. Save a ton on trucking and disposal fees, plus be quicker.

 

[FSERVICE]

Disregard the tire comment, that was a time long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away..

Or late at night LOL

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . CM1195 . Very interesting and detailed post about undercarriage costs . . . now I am going to really show my ignorance.

I watch those little (and not so little) rubber track jiggers whizzing around on job sites and, as I have mentioned on this board before, they often seem to be doing a lot whizzing instead of loading up and pushing/digging.

Is their main attraction/usefulness due to the fact that the rubber tracks allow them to move quickly and . . . for want of a better word "proper" tracks would slow them down?

When I say "proper" I stumbled across this with what appears to be a "standard" type Berco track and I reckon I could probably live with a little digger-jigger running on a set of those rather than rubber.

http://sutterequipment.com/sutter_500.html

Cheers.

 

[CM1995]

Or late at night LOL

Yep..that too.

Scrub that's a good question and I have some thoughts on that but it's late here, time to go to bed. I'll get back with a comment later.

 

[CM1995]

Scrub, Bobcat at one time offered a steel undercarriage and appears to still do.

http://www.bobcat.com/buyers_guide/loaders/iss2/tracks

Cat offers a steel track UC for it's large CTL's too. I saw one at the dealer a year or so ago, outfitted with a mulcher and forestry package.

Since I haven't ran a steel tracked CTL, really can't comment on it but I do have an opinion. The UC cost is high enough already for CTL's and I think the metal would only drive this cost up, probably thru the roof in normal operations.

Take for instance the side loading the chains and other components would be subject to in normal close quarters/tight skid steer environments, twisting and turning all the time. The rubber track does allow a little flexibility in this area.

Depending on a specific end use I see where a metal tracked CTL would be worth it - mulching, demo, scrap/recycling yard, etc. However for the average contractor, such as myself, I think metal tracks actually take away from the versatility of the machine when one has a small dozer or "real" track loader in their fleet. If I have a job site condition that warrants metal tracks then I won't be using the CTL.

Conversely, if a CTL was the prime or only piece of equipment one had, I don't see limiting yourself or carrying around boards or used tires to cross paved and finished surfaces. Unless one was strictly a mulching operation or the like, I still think rubber tracks offer more value. However, we all know how opinions are, we all have one.

 

[CM1995]

The rain is killing us! 3rd day in a row, haven't worked this week. We've probably gotten 3-4" of rain over the last 3 days, flooding is now an issue.

This is what the site looked like yesterday -





That pipe needs to be in the ground!