6640 gehl, thick white smoke at starting

[6640gehl]

I got a 6640 gehl with 4600hrs. duetz bf4m2011 my issue is, I am having long crank times to get it started. itll smoke a thick white smoke then give it some air preheater then crank some more and itll eventually start. once it is running you can shut it off and itll start perfect when warm.

the dealer did the following:
set injection pump timing on all pumps
all filters
battery
lift pump
verified the preheater works.

They are now thinking low compression. didn't do a compression test yet. It burns no oil in 100hr oil changes. has good power, does smoke alitte when running brush mower attachments.

Any other suggestions. I am having a hard time thinking is rebuild time with how well this engine runs. I can set the oil filler cap on top and crankcase pressure wont blow it off. thanks for your help.

 

[bill onthehill]

Are you plugging it in to warm it up? My Gehl with a Deutz is a cold blooded beast. Even plugged in I usually have to cycle the preheat at least twice and it still is cranky. The other day I let one of my heaters blow in the engine compartment for about 15 minutes and it seemed to help. This extreme cold has made mine worse than normal.

 

[Swannny]

Curious as to what she'll do if you cold start it on ether or WD40? I have a 5640e that would make a ridiculous ruckus on a cold start because it only had one glow plug working. Changed them out and what a difference. I've had other 5640's that only had the pre heater in the intake manifold and they would start well without a ruckus in the cold.

 

[powerjoke]

curious but how does a block heater work on a deutz? i have a few of them and never even crossed my mind to plug them in.... what does the heater heat ??

pj

 

[willie59]

I think I'd pull the injectors out and have them tested before I condemn the engine for an overhaul.

 

[6640gehl]

If it has a block heater, I cant find it anywhere. If I park it in the shop overnight and have the temp at 50 degrees, itll start a tad easiers but still tons of white cranking smoke. This engine has a manifold heater, no glow plugs. I started it once with ether and it starts right away. But I dont like using either on diesels so I stay away from it. I am thinking about have the injectors tested while I have them out for a compression test. what makes you think injectors, I am not questioning your idea, just trying to learn as much as I can about these duetz. Thanks

 

[thepumpguysc]

I was thinking injectors too..
If the nozzles aren't seating properly, the fuel in the lines will leak past the "pintle" and drip onto the piston overnite.. hence the white smoke.. unburnt fuel..
PLUS.. its easy and cheap..lol

 

[Swannny]

I've had 6 or 7 of the Gehl's with the Deutz oil cooled. I wouldn't take it as gospel that your manifold heater is working correctly just because the dealer said it was. Take it out and hook it up to a 12v jumper pack...should get very hot. My friend has a Gehl w/ deutz and has almost 6k hrs. on it (he's owned since new). His manifold heater went out years ago and he squirts it with a small amount of ether in cold weather with no ill effects. I don't like ether either, but he does it. He's never replaced injectors as far as I know.

I'd check the heater, and pour a bunch of Seafoam in the tank to clean your injectors.

 

[willie59]

what makes you think injectors, I am not questioning your idea, just trying to learn as much as I can about these duetz.

I was thinking injectors too..
If the nozzles aren't seating properly, the fuel in the lines will leak past the "pintle" and drip onto the piston overnite.. hence the white smoke.. unburnt fuel..
PLUS.. its easy and cheap..lol

No definitive reason I suggested testing injectors, it's just that a diesel engine needs three things to run, air fuel and compression, a lack of any of these three will cause problems, and as pumpguysc stated, it's typically easy and cheap to test injectors.

 

[6640gehl]

I ordered new sealing washers for the injectors. ill then pull them and check for compression, and test injectors. anyone know where to get a comp tester adapter or this engine, I only have air cooled adapters. thanks

 

[willie59]

I don't know that I would bother with compression test just yet. Have your injectors tested by an injection shop. If they test good, you're out little money and know to investigate further. If they're bad, that could be your problem. Besides, if in the end it turns out to be poor compression, you're talking engine overhaul. If that were the case, you'd go through the injectors anyway, so your really out nothing having them tested and/or replaced.

 

[Lil' Puss]

I was thinking injectors too..
If the nozzles aren't seating properly, the fuel in the lines will leak past the "pintle" and drip onto the piston overnite.. hence the white smoke.. unburnt fuel..
PLUS.. its easy and cheap..lol

Totally concur. The lingering white smoke is a dead giveaway. You are over-fueling. If the pumps have been calibrated and the timing checks good there are only two things left: 1) Badly worn injectors (most likely from dirty fuel). 2) Restricted air cleaner (not enough air for the quantity of fuel).

 

[powerjoke]

dont want to de-rail the post but again, what does the block heater do on a duetz?

pj

 

[6640gehl]

Well I didn't hear back on the injectors yet. But either way I am going to order a set. it wont hurt to put them in. like what was said, it might fix it, or ill want them anyways when I go to rebuild the engine.

not all duetz are air cooled. this one is oil cooled and there are water cooled also

 

[6640gehl]

Would I be safe just ordering a new nozzle, since that will have the pintle also and that's the most likely culprit?

 

[thepumpguysc]

Don't throw away your money.. just pull them and have them checked.. and while you have them out, see if the inj. shop will let you borrow a compression checker.
.. they may loan you an adaptor to go into the cylinder but you'll have to supply the guage..
If you turn wrenches on your engines a lot, you can get a whole diesel compression kit from northern tool or harb. frt for around 100.00 and it comes w/ a guage.
As far as ordering new nozzles go's.. you'll have to remove the bottom nut on the injector to find out the correct noz. # for your equip.
I DONT recommend doing this tho.. as they have tiny pins inside to align the nozzle to the body and a special tool [rig] is required.. otherwise they will break.
Best to leave it to the pro's.

 

[Lil' Puss]

dont want to de-rail the post but again, what does the block heater do on a duetz?

pj

The magnetic type block heater works well on all engines no matter the cooling type. And he is correct, not all Duetz engines are air cooled. I ran a pair of 1,100 HP Deutz 620 V-16's back in '89. They were liquid cooled.

 

[toomanymachines]

I have a deutz engine in my holder that I use with a snow blower it sits in a shop without heat. 0w40 oil has helped cranking speed. I cover it with a tarp and use a diesel kerosene heater.
I just picked up a 500watt adhesive oil pan heater. that way I should be able to plug it in overnight and just start up in the morning. I did not want a strap on type as I was concerned with a fire.. these adhesive heaters have built in thermostats.
I would also suggest that your injectors have a poor spray pattern. overfuelling.

 

[6640gehl]

I hate to bring up a old thread. But it is a issue that has never been completely resolved. To refresh, my issue is that's it'll crank awhile before putting out white smoke. Then it's a thick heavy white smoke. After you preheat again it'll sputter to life. And clear up with no smoke while running. The pumps all been calibrated last yr along with new injectors, battery, filters.
The dealer is now saying it's probably the fuel rack sticking. So what can be done to get it to move freely again?

 

[thepumpguysc]

There are a lot of variables here that need to be isolated..
Looking back I see where you had the pumps AND inj. done.. What was the outcome on the injectors? replaced tips?
What is the fuel pressure? is the lift pump working properly? is it bleeding back down or holding pressure when you shut off the machine?
You can find the answer by installing a clear plastic/rubber line between the lift pump and the inj. pump inlet.. when its running the line will be full of fuel, when you shut it down for the evening and come back to it, it still should have fuel in the line.. a slight air bubble is acceptable but if its empty you found a problem.. Not saying that's your entire problem but a problem never the less..
Does the machine have an electric shut off on it?? they are notorious for sticking..
Does the machine have automatic shut downs on it?? oil pressure, temp, over speed?? could be it wont allow fuel to the pumps until it reads oil pressure?? hence the long cranking time..
I've seen some Deutz engines the have an electric sh/off device AT THE lift pump.. it shuts off the fuel TO THE lift pump if no oil pressure is being monitored.. there for shutting down the engine..
A sticking rack is not out of the question but can be determined by removing the electr. s/off, if so equiped and reaching in the hole and pushing/pulling the rack.. it should move with very minimal force.. and return to its travel on it own spring force..
I find in my experience, that a stuck rack is either a "bent" rack or sticking inj. pump rack..
Once you determine IT IS a sticking rack by manually moving it.. you can find which one by removing the pumps 1 at a time and manually moving the rack each time..
I hope this helps.. TPG