444 Cummins

[zraffz]

I have been looking at tandem dump trucks as we expand from landscaping into excavating. I found a clean 57k gvwr truck with a 444 and a 13 speed in it. The chassis has 580k on it, motor had an in frame at 490k. Cab, dump body and frame are in great shape.

I read very hit or miss things on these motors but the local shop said that they are pretty reliable when maintained properly. However, they told me that parts are becoming harder to find. Anybody else have any experience with having difficulty finding parts?

I'd absolutely love to have a truck with some power. I drove a single axle with a c10 and 8LL and would love that kind of power in a tandem!

 

[Mike L]

I was always told the 444 was the worst engine cummins ever built. I have zero experience with them but in the 2 and a half years I worked for dealerships I never saw one. Was always told most of them were dead and gone

 

[zraffz]

I was told that the shop hasn't seen one in a while and a lot of their mechanics have no experience with them but some guys do. They aren't sure about parts availability for them anymore.
With that being said, the old timer at the shop and a friend who owns a trucking company said good things about them when they are maintained properly. I feel like a lot of what I read online is just advice passed on from third parties (sort of like when I read about certain car motors).

They certainly are powerful motors and make comparable power to a 3406. I've been warned to steer clear from cat motors due to costly repairs but I feel like a 444 is going to put me in the same boat. The truck will stay in county so it won't get a tremendous amount of mileage put on it which makes me a bit less concerned about a cat. We aren't in a rush since winter is nearly here but if I find what I'm looking for i would love to get it now.

 

[Mike L]

Cats are expensive to fix but parts are available anywhere and most truck mechanics have experience with them. If it was me, I would find out about the parts availability and make a decision based on that info.

 

[DoyleX]

I have one 1280cpl 444 that I built and converted to high flow cooling and 2 mechanical N14's one stock and one built. The low flow cooling is the problem with all cummins motors from 86-90. What cpl is it? You need to convert the cooling over, not a cheap thing. The industrial thermostat housing is over $1200 plus the top and bottom tanks for the radiator, water pump, acc drive pulley swap for the wtr pmp belt, hose plumbing etc.etc.etc... A 3406 from the same era is a sure bet if you are a yellow guy. The 525hp N14's with the iron piston are by far the best yet to date. Over 40yrs of technology in that same design.

 

[zraffz]

I'm not sure what cpl it is. It is from an 1989 truck so I'd imagine it's the low flow cooling. If parts are readily available for it (since the mechanic couldn't confirm it) I have no issue sinking some money into it within reason. It's a very clean and presentable truck.
I am looking to stay under $15,000 so I can still register and insure it to get it home... Seems to rule out almost all the 3406 motors at that price.

I am just trying to steer clear from something that nobody knows how to work on or can get parts for without significant additional downtime.

 

[Shimmy1]

There is nothing wrong with a 444. My uncle drove one over million miles in a '85 359. If you want to know some info on it I can get you whatever you need to know. I know I personally would never have Cat power in a truck. Been down that road several times. Also have listened to more horror stories than success by a long shot.

 

[zraffz]

I'm really just curious about part availability for these motors. I'm sure with 580k miles, most; if not all the commons problems have been taken care of on the truck... Let's face it, only a fool would have kept it for that long if it was plagued with issues constantly.
I'll be brutally honest, I refuse to drive something underpowered like a 3306. After driving a c10 single axle I will never drive another 8.3 cummins lol.

 

[lantraxco]

The story I was told, by an owner who got a free replacement engine, the original run of 444 engines had pistons made of or coated with a new material that had tested well in lab settings and test engines. Unfortunately in real world use and sustained combustion chamber temperatures and pressure the material broke down into a fine powdery material which made it's way to the oil pan. Supposedly this typically occured suddenly between oil changes and oil samples. The powder would quickly plug the oil filter and then when the filter bypassed would fill the cam and crank bearings with this lovely material which resembled lapping compound and it would also I was told plug the oil passages. Basically trashed the crank, cam, and the whole block most of the time. By the time it was all squared away and new pistons were available by and large nobody would take one for free. YMMV

 

[Shimmy1]

Found out some info. My uncle had a 440 Plus which was basically a factory re-con 444. The 444/440 Plus is just a Big Cam 4 with low-flow cooling. Yes, some people had some trouble with the cooling but pretty sure most of it was related to radiators leaking thru the baffles. The 444 was the first Cummins with step-timing. You probably won't work on it yourself but the really best trick is setting the injectors the old way, outer base circle. 75 in-lbs on the downstroke. I know some of you Cummins guys heads are going to explode but 1.1 million is enough proof for me. My uncle also had heard a few stories of guys sticking an injector if they got into the throttle while oil was cool but he had 800,000 on the original injectors. I would think most Cummins dealers would have most parts in stock yet.

 

[DoyleX]

They do have the occasional injector problem and if the fuel rate is all jacked out of proportion and you run em hard they will blow the heads off.
Injector parts at the dealer are super expensive as a complete injector. They will not sell individual pieces. Always go aftermarket but lately some pieces are getting low in stock. STC controller kits are no longer made. Have to buy the entire unit.

Had a inframe... I would need to know what kit was installed. The pistons for this engine have to come from cummins. NO aftermarket made! Lower compression.

Bought a inframe kit 4 yrs ago. Six weeks out, had to come from the mother. It has special low compression ceramic coated crown pistons. Camshaft has a special grind on the injector lobes compared to a fixed time BC4. They did make a STC 400hp BC4 and a tan 440hp BC4. The black engine is the only one that has the special pistons. Your injector preload is determined by cpl some are 75 some are 95inlbs. On a hot day with a long pull at weight and you need or want to say in the throttle it will heat to the point where you have to downgear and back the power off. The thing is you get big power for a small price compared to a 3406. As you work it and if you need the cooling conversion, all parts are interchangeable and available from the big C from way back to BC1. I would never take anything out of warranty to the cummins dealer up here. Most of the kids haven't even seen a big cam, they think a N14 is old... Honestly hold out for a N14 or 3406B/C no E's if you are going to keep it and aren't wrench handy.

 

[zraffz]

Thanks for the info. It is a black block... Forgive my ignorance but I thought an in frame would mainly consist of a quick hone, rings, bearings and maybe turning the crank. How much would an aftermarket piston actually drop the compression and I feel like the result would be moot compared to a worn out high mileage motor. I mean let's face it, dropping .5 in dynamic compression vs a motor that isn't fresh and is not making full cylinder compression, I'd lean towards a rebuilt lower dynamic compression motor; with this being said I will defiantly inquire as to exactly what was done and what parts were used.

I actually am pretty good with passenger automobiles. I have built several race cars/motors/rears and own a shop with a friend that I rarely have time to work at anymore.
With that being said, I am not a diesel mechanic and am pretty limited with my knowledge to basic maintenance/services/changing tires on these big trucks. I wouldn't be afraid to tackle a rebuild if I wasn't cornced about the down time.

 

[DoyleX]

A aftermarket piston will raise the compression by .5 point or more depending on what kit used. Only cummins can get the 3095069 piston. Its made by Mahle. I tried to get aftermarket and it wasnt available at the time I needed it. You need to drop compression and retard timing in a high performance turbocharged diesel for long life.

If you have good knowledge about piston driven race car engines you'll be fine. Just bigger with a different fuel and ign system.
Read this and you might get hooked. It will also tell you what is inside your black beast. https://www.pittsburghpower.com/support/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=110

 

[John C.]

Thanks for the article. It answered many of the questions I had conjured up in my mind and heard from other over the years. It's also nice to read and article from someone who decided that type of information didn't need to be a trade secret.

 

[turbo64]

Cummins everyone can work on them. If they get hot 6 to 8 bolts easy to get to. Cat either one head or two 3 packs. Cummins has three two packs. Very smart and easy to work on. Except the new 500 plus hp engines, one head.

 

[turbo64]

Yeah I had a3406 dit, one head so if you just get one hole hot, bamo 2500 for a rebuilt head. That's insane I was pissed. No more cat power for me. Sold that only ran N 14 after that.Bullet proof motors pulled like locomotives, no problems with them in 12 years.

 

[Shimmy1]

Yeah I had a3406 dit, one head so if you just get one hole hot, bamo 2500 for a rebuilt head. That's insane I was pissed. No more cat power for me. Sold that only ran N 14 after that.Bullet proof motors pulled like locomotives, no problems with them in 12 years.

Ya buddy. :thumbsup

 

[bbixler]

444 cummins stc parts help

There is nothing wrong with a 444. My uncle drove one over million miles in a '85 359. If you want to know some info on it I can get you whatever you need to know. I know I personally would never have Cat power in a truck. Been down that road several times. Also have listened to more horror stories than success by a long shot.

My friend has a 444 in a 85 western star has rebuilt stc 2 times now because of it putting fuel in oil. 1st time lasted over a year 2nd time only 3 weeks. Are there any places to buy complete new ones (stc). His is old style non electric. any help is greatly appreciated