3408e no oil pressure... But some flow

[Nige]

Thanks nige I was away for awhile I don't think I can get software numbers with my full service customer et we threw olds ones back in to get it going started swapping new ones today and look what I found. Talked to service managers and head techs wasted days and every box has one of these.....

My that brings back memories. When the non-Prime injector was first released we asked for some documentation to explain the service mechanics that there was a difference between the two types and if you didn't replace like with like software changes would have to be made. That little piece of paper was the result.... We were the ones who insisted on the Spanish BTW, because most mechanics where I was working back them couldn't read English.

You can get software numbers with a customer version of ET. Just connect and go to the configuration screen. It'll be there somewhere, probably listed as "Personality Module Part Number" or something like that. I think from memory it's the 4th line down, after the Equipment ID, Engine S/N, and ECM S/N.

 

[Nige]

Another question. Does that piece of paper you took the photo of have a Form # marked on it..?
They are usually located at the bottom LH corner - format 4 letters followed by 4 digits- e.g. LEVH1234.

 

[rmllarue91]

 

[rmllarue91]

One other thing I learned and this won't help many but the injectors that leak significant I was able to determine them from being in mixed unmarked box by blowing air in oil feed hole of injector and look for leakage. It was 80+ degrees but the bad ones would shoot small fountain of oil. Ok ones tiny amount of leakage and new ones no leakage. I will grab the personality part number from copy configure tomorrow thanks again for help. It only got 4 of the worst injectors changed but starts fine now

 

[Nige]

Thanks for posting the photo.
If you remember at the start of the thread I suggested to pump up the HEUI oil system and look for which ones leaked the worst. If the injectors are out of the engine your way works just as well. By replacing the worst-leaking injectors the HEUI pump will now be able to get the oil pressure up far enough in the rail to trigger the electronics and light the fires. A suggestion would be to keep a good note of which injectors were replaced this time because if it begins to have starting trouble again the four that were not replaced should probably be the first ones to look at.

 

[rmllarue91]

Lil update they ran it for Lil over a year and blew motor up had us slap a used takeout 99c2507 and it ran good for 6+ months and heui pump came apart and left a sparkling trail to injectors.....
I put the reman pump on today going to pickup seals to install new injectors tomorrow. The injectors we had from first go around are 174-7526 new cat ones purchased from off-road equipment as nos. The ones in this motor are 10r-1266.... I'm taking ecm to our local dealer tomorrow to see about flashing for injectors we want to use. I never did do copy configure to figure out what software is in this one. But if i look up injectors for our serial number i get the 174-7526 we want to use. So if cat tech can flash latest version of software that should match the injectors sis lists for engine no?

 

[Nige]

174-7526 is a Prime Injector. Reman for it is 10R-1265. BUT - see the photo you posted above, according to that you are supposed to replace it with 10R-1266.
10R-1266 is a non-Prime injector.
You can't mix the two injector types in the same engine because the software to run Prime injectors and the software to run non-Prime injectors is different.

I've had a look and what SIS says for the S/N (99C05555 installed in 835 S/N 7FR00441) is what it was originally built with.
HOWEVER - a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. The Prime injectors have all but disappeared because Cat could never get over the premature wear issues caused by the injectors actuating multiple times during every injection cycle.

The "Bible" for changing engines from Prime to non-Prime injectors is Cat Special Instruction REHS1385.
According to that document you should be using 232-1183/10R-1266 Part Number injectors and 256-7312 flash file software. That will most likely require an Interlock Code change from 21 to 61 which may cause the dealer all sorts of conniptions. Don't be surprised if they try to sell you a new replacement ECM.
The FLS/FTS settings for the engine woill also need to be changed from whatever is in the ECM right now (maybe -27/4 if the dyno test numbers are right) to -50/13.

 

[Nige]

As an addition to the above the replacement engine 99C02507 was originally built as 458 BHP @ 2000 RPM for a 988F Series II application vs the 525 BHP @ 2100 RPM of the 836, so I'm assuming that the ECM was taken from the failed engine 99C0555 and installed on 99C02507 otherwise I'm sure the operators would have been complaining of a lack of power.......!!

99C02507 was also originally built with 174-7526 Prime injectors.

 

[Nige]

I just re-read your post above.
I have my fingers crossed that the ECM has Prime injector software (236-5585, or an earlier version such as 222-9252 or 177-5380) in it. Because if it already has 256-7312 non-Prime software there is no way the dealer will get passwords to go "backwards" with the software.
In that event it will be either go with some more 10R-1266 injectors or buy a new ECM and have it flashed with 236-5585.

 

[rmllarue91]

Thanks in original i goofed the serial number.
Original was 99c3535 machine 2zr1242
174-7526 or 20R-0758 is what I get when I look up injectors but the machines I've worked on all have the 10r-1266. Is there a bulletin or something that I'm missing why they updated these. My dealer stock one.of each...

 

[rmllarue91]

The ecm is one that came with 99c2507 both motors had 10r1266s so I'm going to assume newer files.....
So best bet is forget we have the 174-7526s and order 8 10r1266s

 

[Nige]

In that case I would suggest not to assume the ECM has non-Prime software. Have the dealer check what the software is (plus the FLS/FTS settings) and post it back here. I'm interested to hear what's in it.

For 988F II 2ZR01242 the ECM software for non-Prime injectors is 237-0735. Interlock 79, FLS -59, FTS 106.
Once you have the engine running again you can check the power by the converter stall RPM @ 1880 RPM and the double (converter + hydraulic system) stall @ 1730 RPM. I've highlghted them below in blue. They are only approximate numbers but at least give you an idea of how the engine is performing.

 

[rmllarue91]

In that case I would suggest not to assume the ECM has non-Prime software. Have the dealer check what the software is (plus the FLS/FTS settings) and post it back here. I'm interested to hear what's in it.

For 988F II 2ZR01242 the ECM software for non-Prime injectors is 237-0735. Interlock 79, FLS -59, FTS 106.
Once you have the engine running again you can check the power by the converter stall RPM @ 1880 RPM and the double (converter + hydraulic system) stall @ 1730 RPM. I've highlghted them below in blue. They are only approximate numbers but at least give you an idea of how the engine is performing.

View attachment 237737

lil update finally got around to finishing loader it starts fine sounds fine it's a little slow to rev up but above 1200 rpm power is normal no smoke no rattle if i had to guess timing is a little advanced but doesn't seem to hurt anything..... They leaving it for spare machine for few weeks till money is better and then put set of 10r1266s back in thanks for help hef.

 

[rmllarue91]

Btw cat dealer didn't plug into ecm said they couldn't go backwards like nige said.

 

[Nige]

211-1655 flash file (personality module) software services to 237-0734 which is Non-Prime software, so at least the 10R-1266 injector is the correct match for that sofdtware. However if you look at the table above it's the file Part Number for a machine with a S/N lower than 2ZR700, so strictly speaking it's not the right one. How much difference it would make if it was changed to 237-0735 I have no idea, and TBH I wouldn't recommend trying it.

Reading your comment about the sluggish initial engine response I think I can suggest something. See the FLS & FTS (Full Load & Full Torque Fuel Setting) numbers. They are the original values that engine 99C02507 left the factory with in 1997 when it had Prime injectors installed.
The FLS/FTS values ought to be changed from the exising 70/5 to -59/106 as per the table in post #32 above.
That should sharpen up the engine response significantly.
To make that adjustment will require factory passwords, so it's a dealer-only change I'm afraid.
If the decision is made to make the FLS/FTS changes then I would suggest updating the 211-1655 to 237-0734 at the same time. It could all be done using the one set of passwords.

 

[nicky 68a]

Fascinating thread.
I realise I know nowt about much.
My fitter told me many years ago,to try and avoid any Huie engine.
I can see why now

 

[Nige]

You're not wrong there Nicky. The early 3408/3412E HEUI engines gave us fits back in the mid-1990's and really didn't get that much better as the years went on.

 

[kshansen]

You're not wrong there Nicky. The early 3408/3412E HEUI engines gave us fits back in the mid-1990's and really didn't get that much better as the years went on.

I recall having a problem with a 769D years back S/N 5SS00621. It would run and start fine every weekday morning but shut it down over weekend and Monday morning it would crank for ever to get it to start.

That was my first experience with a HEUI engine. Had to wait a week to have Cat guy come out on a Monday to see it in the no start condition. Only took a quick look at the injectors while cranking it to say needs injectors. Luck dealer had set in stock and by the end of the day she was running like new!