3408e no oil pressure... But some flow

[rmllarue91]

99c5555 hey hef kinda weird one here 988f2 shut off as operator was leveling modified. Cranks no oil pressure on gauge and guage flashing. Double checked with a digital low pressure gauge I use for oil fuel low pressure. Nothing not a psi. But it I pull plug it will half a$$ pump oil. It's flows slow with no pressure. Checked bypasses nothing wrong. Pulled pan and pump looks fine. Relief plunger was in bottom of bore and spring was in tacked. Gear on crank is firmly attached. Same with gear on from of oil pump. Suction and supply tubes check out. There is uniform metal flakes in filters looks like bearing material not aluminum. It's not magnetic. Maybe 1-3 flakes per fold of oil filter media. It seems oil pump is supplying oil just no resistance to build pressure.... I don't see any damage that can dump all oil flow back to sump. Does a heiu motor need heui resistance to build oil pressure for rotating group? Seems far fetched to me. Any thoughts I'm scratching my head. I feel like I over looked someone but I'm not seeing it duh. lol

 

[Mark250]

check the jumper tubes

 

[Nige]

Are you talking no engine oil pressure or no pressure from the HEUI pump to light the fires..? I speak under correction here but AFAIK if there is zero pressure from the main oil pump the HEUI pump ain't gonna be receiving much on the way of oil and therefore not producing much in the way of pressure.

TBH the mention of 1-3 flakes of something non-metallic (lead-tin overlay.?) per fold of filter media in the engine oil filter would have me dropping at least a couple of bearing caps for a look-see, especially as you dropped the pan already. How many hours does the engine have on it since it was last overhauled..? Has it ever had engine oil contaminated with glycol..?

 

[rmllarue91]

Hey nige we are looking for source of metal. No main oil pressure but flow there is a rather large tube feeding heui pump is there a way enough oil can flow threw heui pump and or system to dump main oil pressure down below 1 psi.... No history on engine machine is 37000 hrs engine is believed to have high hours. I pulled heui pump last night going to inspect.

 

[Nige]

Are you talking about the tube #2 in the illustration below..? Try blankingit either at the bottom or the top whichever is most convenient and see what happens to the engine oil pressure.

Another interesting factoid. Engine S/N 99C05555 was originally installed in an 836 Landfill Compactor not a 988F Series II........ The ECM software for the 988FII and the 836 were/are different because the engine arrangements are totally different. Thinking out loud I wonder what software your engine has in it right now..? Not trying to muddy the waters but just asking. Latest software for the two engine arrangements are: -
836 - 236-5585 - 525BHP @ 2100
988FII - 236-5588 - 458BHP @ 2000 RPM
A bit of a difference to say the least ............!!

 

[rmllarue91]

Okay we bench ( tested ) heui pump. Used a 3/4 diaphragm pump with fresh engine oil at 80-100 psi pump leaks oil above shaft and out discharge maybe a quart a minute total. Doesn't seem like anywhere near enough to drop main oil pressure I'm totally stumped. Pump it heui pump looks striped out or it was spinning by a hope and dream them splines are toast. But pump is also broke inside. If I cap lines to heads with pressure feeding heui and you turn input if skips internal. Heui system is compromised but it isn't source of metal or no main oil pressure.

 

[Nige]

As I suggested above, blank the supply line from the block to the HEUI pump at either the bottom or the top whichever's easiest, crank 'er over and see what pressure you get. I'm willing to be it won't be much.

 

[rmllarue91]

Hey nige I supplied wrong serial number that's a combination of to different pieces I'm working on I'll get correct info later. This company always has weird issues. Thanks for replies I'm going to try and blow air from oil filter housing back though oil cooler looking for restrictions before I put pump and oil pan back up. My brother though out idea of restriction before where I was taping in oil gallery

 

[rmllarue91]

If not I'll cap heui line

 

[rmllarue91]

Soo the plot thickens actually twists... 2zr001242 99c03535 I knew it repeats lol. Oil pump and bearings she makes 25 psi oil at gallery. Heui pump and drive gears striped. Got a used pump. rebuilt drive and nos oem cat injectors 8 of a 174-7526. loaders starts fine but has no power can't fill bucket. sounds even and smooth. We took 10r 1266 injectors out. Our cat dealer says 174 7526 is the right injectors is there a chance of compatibility issues

 

[partsandservice]

Is the 25 psi at cold start? Is the IPR part of the pump assembly, I think Cat calls it a hydraulic pressure sensor. It may have a screen that has some metal in it. IMO one must treat a HEUI fuel system failure just like a main hydraulic pump failure. Cleaning the system must be done in completion and addressing suction piping, cylinders, track motors...
Repeat failure can almost be instant if not. I have found that treating the suction piping on C-7 as a maintenance item that those pumps last longer; not scientific but just not having the amount of HEUI failures as others. Also on that engine is it possible to have the plugs swapped on the crank and cam sensors? It is easily possible on a C-7.

 

[rmllarue91]

Yes 25 psi cold oil cranking at 200 rpm with feed line to heui pump capped. It idles with warm oil around 40psi now. I did clean head and tubes but there was no signs of contamination. And injectors are really close on Cylinder cutout test. I don't think these injectors are faulty. It doesn't appear anything is connected wrong

 

[rmllarue91]

Okay so I guess motor should have 20r0758 s but the one I took out seem to be higher hp injectors
10r1266
But the power loss I'm experiencing is maybe 50% loss
Everyone I talk to says this motor should have a different version of the original I can't find where any 988f series 2 ran these 10r1266

 

[Nige]

I have a load of info from way back regarding HEUI injectors. Problem is I’m in an airport at the moment.
Give me until tomorrow when I get where I’m going and I’ll see what I can dig up.
Homework for you. What software Flash File Part Number does it have in the ECM..?

 

[kshansen]

Well I tried looking one SIS and seem to fine reference to "Prime" injectors and "Non-Prime" injectors. Not sure what the two terms mean.

But going by the S/N for this engine SIS seems to say the original injector was a 1388756 that in NPR changes to 1590835 and that one in turn changes to 1747526 and if I'm reading the attached letter correctly that number is a "Prime" injector.

And in the same letter it says a 10R1266 is a reman for 2321183 and that one is a "Non-prime" injector.

Hope when Nige gets time tomorrow he can add more information to that.

Note the attached letter is referring to "Industrial Engines" not sure if that it would be applicable to a 988F II 3408E

 

[rmllarue91]

Thanks KS and nige I knew there was a software issue I put old 10r1266 injectors In and runs fine. But they leak internal and give us hard start. It starts easy with new injectors just have to switch to worn out ones to load trucks lol. What sucks is these 1747526s are bought and paid for and have been used.... Do they use prime and non prime injectors in on heui engines I've never heard the term before?

 

[Nige]

What Ken has found is the way I was going to head also. AFAIK Prime injectors were done away with years ago and only non-Prime were available from that point forward. Were the replacement injectors bought from a Cat dealer or aftermarket..? I suspect the latter.

My question about ECM software P/N relates to the fact that each type of injector requires a different software to make the engine run correctly. By the sound of it the possibility exists that while the injectors in the engine are Prime, the installed software is for non-Prime, especially as the P/N of the removed injectors corresponds to non-Prime.

Still traveling at the moment. I’ll dig into it deeper a bit later. Really could use the info on the software P/N though.

 

[Nige]

Let's put one doubt to be for a start. Engine S/N 99C03535 was the original engine installed in 988FII S/N 2ZR01242, so that's that.

Maybe a bit of explanation about Prime vs non-Prime would be in order. Simply put, Prime injectors actually inject fuel twice in each combustion cycle. Once way ahead of what usually would be the normal fuel injection point to establish a flame front, the second time just before TDC to generate the power. The theory was that the "pre-injection" reduced exhaust emissions. The problem with Prime was that the injectors operated twice every combustion cycle and therefore wore out twice as fast. Non-Prime are more like conventional injectors and inject only once per combustion cycle, therefore wear out only half as quick.

Here are the Part Number progressions for Prime and non-Prime HEUI injectors.
Prime - 119-3166->131-3098->138-8754(0R-8207)->159-0835(0R-8624)->174-7526(0R-9420)->232-1175(20R-0758). 232-1175 was later cancelled and the "progression" reverted to 174-7526.
Non-Prime - 198-4752(10R-0964)->232-1183(10R-1266)

A 99C-prefix engine installed in a 988FII with machine Serial Number between 2ZR00700 and 2ZR01631 and engine Serial Number between 99C1-7319 (which includes the OP's machine) would use the following software Part Numbers: -
Prime injectors - 236-5587 (Interlock Code 20)
Non-Prime injectors - 237-0735 (Interlock Code 79)

Here's what I think based on what the OP has told us. The worn injectors that were removed were 10R-1266 which corresponds to non-Prime. The engine had plenty of power with those injectors, but had starting trouble because of the injectors leaking internally due to wear. I think the software in the ECM must be 237-0735, because when Prime injectors are installed the engine has no power although it seems to run smooth.

The question has to be why a Cat dealer sold 174-7526 as a replacement for 10R-1266 because it isn't.............. The correct replacement for 10R-1266 would be another 10R-1266 if you wanted Reman or 232-1183 if you wanted a brand-new injector.

 

[rmllarue91]

Thanks nige I was away for awhile I don't think I can get software numbers with my full service customer et we threw olds ones back in to get it going started swapping new ones today and look what I found. Talked to service managers and head techs wasted days and every box has one of these.....

 

[mitch504]

I was about to ask if you could explain Prime vs non-Prime. Once again if I just keep my mouth shut I can learn a lot on here.