1998 416C IT Backhoe block heater seems to be intermittent

[Dougie G]

I should have put a mirror behind the heater so I could see how the ground wire is connected. The heater should still work even if the ground wire was bad if the element was good, but its not. I tested it as best I could having not being able to see the back side of the heater, and it seemed good. I don't know what the purpose of the threaded plug is? It appears to be a brass or chrome plug in the brass fitting that threads into the block.

 

[Dougie G]

Does anyone have SiS access that can look up information on this block heater for my 416c back hoe?
The serial number is 1WR03918
I'm looking for a schematic.

 

[Dougie G]

First off did you check for the ohms at the heater and not just on the contacts under the chrome "Cat" spring loaded door? You need to test right at the heater where the white and black wires are connected. Those are the "HOT" wires from the plug in the chrome receptacle. The green wire is the ground not sure if it is connected to the heater or a ground point on the engine block.

If you do test as above and still get no reading a couple things you need to do. First you need to drain the coolant from the engine. Second I would wait to remove the old on till you have the new one in hand. Looking at the first picture I'm not sure what that chrome threaded thing coming out of the brass fitting is. It could be a set screw to lock the heater in the correct position many block heaters have to be installed in a correct orientation to avoid hitting something inside the block.

It could be that you need to hold the hex part the blue plastic the screw terminals are molded into and use a second wrench to turn the brass part the plug or set screw is in to avoid damaging it.

I tried looking for information on SIS and it would help to have a full serial number as the heaters I was seeing do not look like the one you pictured.

Sorry, I just saw that you asked for the serial number.
It is 1WR03918

 

[Dougie G]

I talked to CAT, they haven't seen anything like this. They think it might be original, but they have changed them now. They say I may need to change the whole cord and heater. To bad the cord looks like a heavy duty quality part.

 

[Delmer]

I've never seen one like that either. I doubt that wiring job is factory. I'm GUESSING that's a drywell with a heater inside it, the screw fastens the heater inside the outer casing so you can remove the heater without draining the coolant. That cord connection seems odd for a block heater, usually there's pins in a pattern and the cord is like a computer power cord, it just presses on, or it presses on and there's a screw to secure it. At this point you have nothing to lose by knocking that blue plastic off the heater, there might be a thermostat in there that's opened up, doesn't look like it, but why not try. IF it is a dry heater inside a well, then you could find another heater that would fit, or take the well out and use that threaded hole, or put a heater in another core plug.

 

[kshansen]

I've spent a bunch of time and SIS seems to go all around on this one. Seems there have been many changes to that engine over the years!

I'm thinking the original part number for what the factory installed was a 117-9354 heater and it now appears to have been replaced by a 231-3054. SIS does show what I believe to be "Document Numbers" related to the change but I can not access them from my SIS account, might try to see if dealer can take a look at them, SMOC1199 and SEPD0492, and let you know what they refer to.

While looking for this information I'm seeing that there are even two different versions of this engine with the arraignment of where the intake and exhaust valves are located in relation to the adjacent cylinders!

 

[Dougie G]

I've spent a bunch of time and SIS seems to go all around on this one. Seems there have been many changes to that engine over the years!

I'm thinking the original part number for what the factory installed was a 117-9354 heater and it now appears to have been replaced by a 231-3054. SIS does show what I believe to be "Document Numbers" related to the change but I can not access them from my SIS account, might try to see if dealer can take a look at them, SMOC1199 and SEPD0492, and let you know what they refer to.

While looking for this information I'm seeing that there are even two different versions of this engine with the arraignment of where the intake and exhaust valves are located in relation to the adjacent cylinders!

I got this from Cat today, you were correct;The heater as 1179354 changes up to 2313054 and the wire as 1179324 change up to 1614150. It looks like the new one has to go into a frost plug hole. I would much rather take the old one apart and try to find an after market piece/element that would work from a jobber. It would cost less if I can find one. The new parts are $300 plus and I would have to know which frost plug they are using on my engine.

 

[Delmer]

Do Katz or other heater makers have a core plug heater listed for your engine? that would be my first choice. Then a tank or lower radiator hose heater.

 

[kshansen]

Well how about this one from ZeroStart?

Not sure about availability in Canada but they show up on Amazon.com for around $30.00 US. Does Amazon ship to Canada? Just try doing a Google search for "ZeroStart 310-0045" and see what comes up. Maybe Canadian Tire carries ZeroStart?

 

[Dougie G]

Well how about this one from ZeroStart?View attachment 178167

Not sure about availability in Canada but they show up on Amazon.com for around $30.00 US. Does Amazon ship to Canada? Just try doing a Google search for "ZeroStart 310-0045" and see what comes up. Maybe Canadian Tire carries ZeroStart?

I haven't figured this out yet. Now its winter again. I'd like to find an easy solution to replace this block heater. There must be a part that will replace this element. I went to cat but they couldn't find anything, but I'm in Canada. Many times I have hit dead ends like this in Canada, where in the States its usually an easier solution. This is an old post so I'm not sure if anyone remembers. I do apreciate all the suggestions and comments I received from you guy's on this forum.

 

[Nige]

416C Backhoe S/N 1WR03918 was equipped with the 117-9320 Jacket Water Heater Gp when it was originally built in July 1998.

As pointed out above 117-9354 that is part of the the 117-9320 Group updates to 231-3054. Here are parts references from the original, and from a later 416F2 showing the new-type block heater install and the parts used by each group. If one part on your machine is bad then it may mean updating other parts in the Group to maintain compatibility. IMO it shouldn't matter where you are in the world if you go into your Cat dealer and give them "good" Part Numbers they ought be able to get hold of them. YMMV........

 

[kshansen]

That 231-3054 group number is available in one ore two days here in NY for $164.09 and includes everything short of the receptacle and some hardware. And the receptacle could be replaced with a standard 120 volt plug end from any hardware store, just not as neat and fancy!

 

[Dougie G]

That 231-3054 group number is available in one ore two days here in NY for $164.09 and includes everything short of the receptacle and some hardware. And the receptacle could be replaced with a standard 120 volt plug end from any hardware store, just not as neat and fancy!

Hi, kshansen , would you have a link to the place where its available and a photo. I just need the element part. Will it work on the original equipment I have on the machine? If so I would order it and have it shipped if possible. If its from Cat , I can let my local dealer know its there. Thanks

 

[Dougie G]

416C Backhoe S/N 1WR03918 was equipped with the 117-9320 Jacket Water Heater Gp when it was originally built in July 1998.

As pointed out above 117-9354 that is part of the the 117-9320 Group updates to 231-3054. Here are parts references from the original, and from a later 416F2 showing the new-type block heater install and the parts used by each group. If one part on your machine is bad then it may mean updating other parts in the Group to maintain compatibility. IMO it shouldn't matter where you are in the world if you go into your Cat dealer and give them "good" Part Numbers they ought be able to get hold of them. YMMV........

Thank you for the info, at least I know what shape the element is as it is installed in the block. Would you have a close up of what the element looks like and a break down of it? Thanks

 

[kshansen]

If you check out the PDF file Noge uploaded "SEPD0492 and start reading at the bottom of page 3 it tells you how to install the heater element for the Series "C" backhoe and includes the part numbers needed.

In that list is the heater element 161-8198 which lists here in NY for $144.50 the style may be different than yours but if your engine has the plug described in step #2 of the instructions it should work in your engine even if it is located to a different place than your non-working heater!

Not having the heater element and your cord in hand to look at I can not be sure if your cord will fit the new heater. If not the new heater may need to have the new cord # 131-4150 that cord here in NY lists for $60.00.

All these part numbers are right out of Cat's parts system so as Nige says they should be available from any Cat dealer in the world. Prices may be different from NY to BC but that I can not quote with any accuracy.

Not sure what this machine is worth to you or how much money you could loose by it not starting when needed but do know if you burn out a starter or do other damage to the engine using starting fluid the $200.00 or a little more would have been money well spent in my mind.

It's like the old oil filter advertisement that said "Pay me now or pay me latter!" and we all know the latter bill will be much higher!

Good luck and be sure to post how you make out with the project!

 

[Dougie G]

I would have rather replaced just the element but since they don't make them anymore I will probably have to pop the frost plug out and buy the new part and the new cord as well because judging by this photo I found on the internet, my cord won't work, as mine has 3 wires that hook up to terminal screws on the heater insulator. I may or may not be able to route the new cord into the chrome spring door housing and conduit on my machine.
Not sure if the heater that is my machine now is the original either, but the cord is original, judging by the pdf instructions Nige sent me. The description in the instructions for the B series in the pdf seems to match what is in my machine, and so does the heater. The diagrams in the pdf do not show enough detail to really see what the elements look like.
I do thank you for the info and the part numbers. The last time I went to the Cat dealer here , they couldn't seem to suggest a replacement.
I don't start it with starting fluid. If its too cold I don't run it.
I have an old 450 Timberjack Skidder, with a 353 detroit that likes starting fluid. If its really cold I use a parachute, tiger torch and a piece of save pipe to heat it up. Usually when its 20 below or colder.

 

[Nige]

Thank you for the info, at least I know what shape the element is as it is installed in the block. Would you have a close up of what the element looks like and a break down of it? Thanks

There is no breakdown - it's a single Part Number therefore it comes as a single piece, at least from Cat anyway, and from the way you are talking Cat is your only possibility of supply because you can't find parts anywhere else.

From all the information I can find the changed element Part Number 231-3054 should be a direct replacement for the existing (non-functional) element in your machine. Also my information is that a 231-3052 cord is included along with the element. However that information is not guaranteed 100%, either way it's not the end of the world. If you need a cord you have to buy one separately - cheap at the price.........

One has to ask why this subject came up over a year ago and still isn't fixed. Could it be that the summer intervened and the problem went away therefore it got forgotten..? Right over my desk at work is the motto - "Please explain to me EXACTLY why YOUR lack of forward planning should constitute MY Emergency" - seems kinda appropriate.

 

[Dougie G]

There is no breakdown - it's a single Part Number therefore it comes as a single piece, at least from Cat anyway, and from the way you are talking Cat is your only possibility of supply because you can't find parts anywhere else.

From all the information I can find the changed element Part Number 231-3054 should be a direct replacement for the existing (non-functional) element in your machine. Also my information is that a 231-3052 cord is included along with the element. However that information is not guaranteed 100%, either way it's not the end of the world. If you need a cord you have to buy one separately - cheap at the price.........

One has to ask why this subject came up over a year ago and still isn't fixed. Could it be that the summer intervened and the problem went away therefore it got forgotten..? Right over my desk at work is the motto - "Please explain to me EXACTLY why YOUR lack of forward planning should constitute MY Emergency" - seems kinda appropriate.

Hi, Nige, If its a direct replacement, thats perfect. I understood different. I will check with cat next week. I haven't looked anywhere else for an element yet. Did you look at my earlier photos of the one that is in my machine now in the earlier posts, it has set screw or something and seems to come apart in at least two pieces.

 

[Dougie G]

I've never seen one like that either. I doubt that wiring job is factory. I'm GUESSING that's a drywell with a heater inside it, the screw fastens the heater inside the outer casing so you can remove the heater without draining the coolant. That cord connection seems odd for a block heater, usually there's pins in a pattern and the cord is like a computer power cord, it just presses on, or it presses on and there's a screw to secure it. At this point you have nothing to lose by knocking that blue plastic off the heater, there might be a thermostat in there that's opened up, doesn't look like it, but why not try. IF it is a dry heater inside a well, then you could find another heater that would fit, or take the well out and use that threaded hole, or put a heater in another core plug.

I didn't know they had dry well heaters, I will research. I would just take it apart but I don't want the machine down and its been warm lately.