1970 Case 580CK Gauges

[ebath]

Well, those pictures didn't work. Let's try again.



Ed

 

[onemank6]

Hey Ed i would wire it up the way i explained it in prior post then see if the starter turns it over.At this point i would concentrate on the starter circuit then go to the charging system and to be honest with you that looks like a really old alternator with a external regulator and what i see a lot of people doing with these is installing one of the one wire gm alternators it is a lot more reliable than the old ones and most starter/alternator rebuild stock these for about $100.00 or go to a auto junkyard get a 2 wire gm alternator and there is a fairly straight forward way to wire this up or you can take the 2 wire to a starter/alternator shop and they can make it a 1 wire.There is probably someone on here who knows your alt but i havnt dealt with one like that,Mine is the 2 wire with the built in regulator and wasnt charging when i got it as it was wired wrong i have since corrected it and it works great. when your wiring the starter system like we talked about make sure you have a ground from battery to the transmission,engine,ect and make sure your starter is getting ground.Let us know if this works for the starter.

 

[onemank6]

Tomorrow i will get you a pic of my alt and give you an little description of what im talking about

 

[1968 Case 580CK]

Ed....I think I still have the old generator on my CK, and the voltage regulator is mounted under the fuel tank.

Your new switch appears to have 3 terminals on the outside, and one in the middle.
The lower left terminal is a hot from the battery (or it might be coming from the solenoid).
The upper timinal "ACC" would be to supply power to your gauges.
The "IG" would be the wire that allows power to flow to the solenoid and other ignition systems. (let others explain this better)
The middle one "ST"......would that be the wire that runs to the solenoid and tells the starter to spin?

Someone else can give you a better explanation, but this is what comes to my head right now.
Did you get a chance to put tape on the wire ends and use a meter to verify both ends of the wires? That really helped me to prevent getting wires crosses.
You may want to just run the wires to the new switch and test everything before mounting it up in the dash.

 

[melben]

The wire to the neutral start switch from the ign switch should be hooked to the IGN terminal so it is hot when the switch is on, If it were hooked to the st terminal it would require both the ign and the ns switches to be used together to start it. If the ns switch is inoperable , there are shim washers under it that MAY bring it back to life , try removing one or two, this can be done with a continuity tester. If the old prestolite alternator is being used the exciter wire from the dash lite goes on the small nut with the other wire from the regulator. I believe the factory light had a 75 ohm resistor strapped across it as well.

The other wire from the neutral start switch goes straight to the small inside terminal on the solenoid.

 

[onemank6]

Here is the one of the gm alts i spoke about

 

[ebath]

Thanks to everyone for their help, I now have a lot of information to digest!

My son is an auto tech who has a multi-meter so we are going to test the connections as soon as our schedules align.

I think we'll try "xpackdeals" wiring suggestion first. Once we get it started, then we'l proceed to the charging circuit and then the gauges.

Since the original alternator still works, I'd like to continue using it for now.

Thanks again. I hope to report some progress soon...

Ed

 

[onemank6]

ebath im sure it will work this way to get you started but i would question melben some more about what he is talking about with the neutral switch hooking to the ign terminal.I understand what he is saying about not going threw both switches im just not sure how to wire it exactly the way he is talking about.He would be the one who could break this down for you he is very smart on these tractors.I hope to see you got her going and i would also do as 68case says leave everything hanging until you have it all working the way it should then install everything.any how let us know.

 

[El Hombre]

OP, if you find an online schematic for a late 60's GM car or truck with an automatic transmission, follow the wiring for that on your hoe. It'll have the battery, neutral safety switch, ignition switch, solenoid and starter, just what you need to wire yours. Even the alternator will be in there...

 

[ebath]

My tractor now starts using the "xpackdeals method" !!!

The neutral switch, ignition switch, battery, and starter solenoid are all connected. But nothing else.

One small problem is that I must turn the ignition key manually back from the Start position or the starter keeps turning. I may need to find a switch that springs back automatically.

Now, I guess it's on to the alternator so I have a charging system. Does anyone have any ideas on this?

Thanks,

Ed

 

[melben]

ebath,
The wire that you have connected to the start terminal of the switch should be hooked to the IGN post on the switch, the way you have it now the start position on the ignition switch must be used in conjunction with the neutral start switch. The starter should be activated only by the gearshift lever movement. On my 530 I used the start post for the engine pre heaters as the preheat post was dead on my switch.

Please advise us as to what alternator you are choosing and we can tell you how to get it wired. The 10SI Delco is the most popular and will mount ok and wiring is so simple a cave man can do it !!! It can be set up as a 1 wire alternator but an excitation circuit is easy and better for low rpm excitation.

 

[ebath]

Thanks melben,

I don't understand your comment that "The starter should be activated only by the gearshift lever movement." I'd like the starter to be activated by depressing the clutch, putting the gearshift in "S", and turning the key in the ignition switch. Can you help me understand?

I'd like to use the alternator that is already on it: Prestolite ALK7314. I believe it is original and it is supposed to work.

 

[1968 Case 580CK]

ebath......I think what Melben is saying is that the safety switch that allows the juice to flow when the gear shift is in "S" is the only switch that should be necessary to allow the starter to turn........that is, the "S" safety switch and the push button starter button are "gates" between the battery juice and the starter motor. (Actually on mine, I also must turn the key switch to the right position, and then push the starter button).

I agree with you......I like to push the clutch down before engaging the starter.....not sure if doing this reduces the weight on the flywheel and puts less strain on the starter?

 

[onemank6]

It sounds like ebath is trying to wire this up without using the separate push button switch to engage the starter but by using just the ignition switch only.And im sure it can be done without having the power thats needed to feed the starter solenoid feeding threw the neutral switch im just not sure how to do it.But im trying to understand how to wire this like this and one thing is for sure ebath you will need a ignition switch that returns to the on position as soon as you let go of the key you dont want a switch that stays in the start position until you turn the key back. I am not familiar with you alternator but i do know the older charging systems were not as reliable as the alternators that have the regulators built in i had did a old farmall cub a while back and wanted to keep it original and lets just say if i would of just put in a 1 wire alt it wold have been cheaper and way more reliable for that application i wanted original but for my backhoe i wouldnt do anything but the 1 wire or 2 wire to eliminate the external regulator if there like the old ones it seems like they always fail right when you need them.
My neighbors 580b had a 2 wire gm alt on it that wasnt charging we took it to a local starter rebuild shop and they rebuilt it and added something to make it a one wire alt and for a complete rebuild and to convert it to a 1 wire it was only $35.00.With the 1 wire all you need is just that 1 hot wire running to the nutted terminal on the back of the alt.and of course ground which you get from mounts.I think you would be very glad you did this if you want reliability and easy to hookup .Unless you just want originality

 

[1968 Case 580CK]

xpack/ebath.......I have the original generator on mine, and it has those small oil ports on each end. The regulator is mounted close to the fuel tank. If you change over to a new style, you will greatly miss flipping up those miniature spring tops and putting a few drops of oil on each end of the genny. Mine genny also has the tachometer gauge mounted to the back of it.......when you swap out to a new style, where do you mount the tack cable?

 

[melben]

ebath, I do not understand your confusion on the post where I said "the starter should be activated only by the gearshift lever movement"

The neutral start switch is a momentary switch designed to be the main start switch, the lever does not have a position it locks in for start, you push against a spring when using the gear lever to activate the NS switch, having to do multiple functions to start the engine is redundant. AS I previously stated, YOU DISCONNECT A VITAL SAFETY FEATURE AT UR OWN RISK IF THE STARTER CAN BE ENGAGED OTHER THAN BY THE START POSITION ON THE GEARSHIFT. Voltage should go directly from the IGN post on the IGN switch to a terminal on the NS, and then from the other terminal of the NS directly to the solenoid. However, If you desire for some reason to have to do two or three things at once, for me personally, turning the IGN on and activating the NS via the gearshift lever is easy. A push button was not ever used and was probably installed to bypass the NS. If using a nonstandard switch without a preheat function the push button could used to activate that solenoid. I am sorry if my original post was not clear enough.

If the original Prestolite alternator is functional the exciter wire fastens to the terminal with the wire coming from the regulator and the big terminal either directly to the Battery terminal on the starter or back to the dash if an ammeter is used then from the ammeter back to the Battery wire. The energizer wire from the IGN terminal on the switch would have a warning light in the wire that mounts in the dash and voltage goes through the bulb to the little terminal of the alternator. In a factory setup the bulb wire and socket assembly would have a 75 OHM resistor strapped across the bulb to keep the charging system functional in case of bulb failure.


Personally, unless originality is paramount to you I would simplify the system by doing away with the ammeter and using a voltmeter in its place, the voltmeter is just as telling as to system performance and eliminates a heavy wire to and from the gage, a voltmeter is a very low current draw and simply goes from IGN terminal to a good ground. With a voltmeter you can tell that the system is working by seeing if the voltage stays in the 14 V range with all the loads applied.

It may be of some interest to you guys to go over to YTMAG site and access the CaseDB forum, there is a fellow creating dashes with individual gages instead of a cluster and they look very nice.

580CK, In most instances the bushing seized in the tachs and people very seldom had them repaired, occasionally they could be loosened up and relubed but as time went on and generators were replaced with other gennys without the threaded armature for the small drive or the gearbox pattern in the end plate the tachs became useless.

On the CaseDB forum mentioned one of the suppliers has a modern alternator with the generator style tach drive installed but I always wondered about the accuracy as most times a pulley change has to be made to accept the alternator to get the belt tension. Maybe accuracy is not as important than just seeing everything working and that's ok too.

I believe in extremely cold weather it may be beneficial to depress the clutch to start because of oil drag in the gearboxes possibly but depressing the clutch pedal causes a force to be applied to the crankshaft thrust bearing is a standard shift and on a PS unit I think there is nothing to be gained. On as standard shuttle just putting the shuttle in neutral will free up the whole drive train but the input shaft. I guess whatever we think works for us.

 

[onemank6]

here is where my tach is hooked up,Im not sure if yours has this on your block or not 68 and i have never dealt with your setup on a tractor this size but i have played with that system on a few smaller ones and they were not as reliable as the conversion to a alt.They might better be on the case 580.

 

[Juskatla]

68 Case, your machine will dot have the drive fitted as shown in the pictures. Older machines are driven off the generator and converting to an alternator will require either an aftermarket tach, abandoning that function or coming up with a creative solution in order to mount the alternator and still keep the tach driven off a stripped out/ modified generator drive. A separate pulley for the new alternator could be fabricated. I have the same issue and wanted to get an alternator mounted but have other issues to deal with first...

 

[1968 Case 580CK]

Melben.......Wow, you covered alot of good details in that last post.......how on earth do you keep all these facts in your head?....maybe you have a super computer upstairs with a ton of RAM memory chips.

My genny and tach set up is working fine, and I hope to never have to alter it. Interesting what you said about the tach not being accurate.....I never thought about that. Hey, if the tach stops working, then I know the belt is broken.......thats a nice feature. I oiled the entire cable, top to bottom, and I probably should take the little gearbox apart and put some fresh lube in that too.

I had no clue that these 580CKs did not come with a starter push button from the factory......so, the operator just pushed the gearshift lever up into "S" with the key on, and the starter would whirl over.....interesting. My gearshift does kinda lock into the "S" position, so I guess the return spring is shot on it.

Depressing the clutch when starting.....as you said, whatever works, and whatever gives our rig good karma to fire up on those cold days.

 

[1968 Case 580CK]

Xpac.....I found an old pic of the genny/tach set-up. Your tach set-up came later, and is not a part of my engine block. So, looks like I better keep my eyes open for a replacement genny gear box for my tach, just to have on hand.



My engine is screaming for some of that case orange paint......on my list to do.