Putting a Case 1085B Cruz-Air Back Into Service

Robertogatos · Mar 28, 2019

Hi John, Thanks for taking the time to reply. If you don't mind, can I dig a bit deeper into your reply?

John C. said:
The summator is a component used to make a positive flow hydraulic system act like a variable flow system. The intent is that when pressure and flow combine to pull more horsepower than the engine is able to deliver, the summator would let some of that flow bypass to tank while keeping pressure on the work equipment. Drott came out with the system in the late 1970s.

So is the function of the summator is to keep the engine from stalling in this situation? By allowing pressure to bleed off to the reservoir? And also to not waste engine HP when no hydraulic circuits are being utilized?

John C. said:
Your stated flow rate and pressure relief setting would indicate an engine capable of producing nearly 300 horsepower. The summator would be able to adapt from those stats for an engine to produce a lot less power and achieve better fuel economy. As far as running a mulcher goes you probably can find plenty of flow out of the machine but power characteristics of running a 4,000 PSI system with a 2,600 PSI system will be somewhat disappointing.

The engine net's 128hp, and gross is 148. The mulching head was Spec'd to run at 35gpm @ 4000psi my thinking is this:

35gpm*4000psi=140,000/1714=81.6 required hp at the head

If each pump provides approximately half the flow in my system and this doesn't overspeed the drum...

50gpm*2600psi=130,000/1714=75.9 hp at the head - This seems acceptable, and is what I'm hoping for.

Lets say in a worst case scenario, I cannot exceed 35GPM at the head because I will overspeed the drum, and I'm not able to change the pulley diameters between the motor and drum for a different drive ratio for whatever reason...

35gpm*2600psi=91,000/1714=53.1 hp at the head

Thats a pretty big hit, at a near 35% loss in power, but I'm only going to be working in 6'' max diameter pine trees and lots of woody brush, so I'm hoping the loss will be acceptable?

Could you please explain the 300hp figure you calculated? Is that a function of the summator I'm not understanding? assuming 100% efficiency, I'm finding a hydraulic HP equivalent of 172.9hp. Realize even that can't be correct, but its closer than your 300hp figure.

John C. said:
Also keep in mind that you have to return all that flow back to the hydraulic tank with little pressure. If you are running 1" supply piping to the mulcher, you will need 1.25" to 1.50" return piping back to the tank and you will have to return it through a swivel. You are setting your system up for plenty of problems.

Good point on the return lines. Was planning on running 1'' for both, thinking that down the line I might want to be able to run motors in two directions. Will have to see what the diameter of the return lines are through the valve block / swivel and try to match that.

For the sake of conversation, lets say the max diameter of a return line out of the valve block, or through the swivel is 1''. Would the performance at the mulching head be improved by having a 1/2 or 3/4'' pressure line over a 1''?

Thanks again John!

Robertogatos · Mar 28, 2019

Here is some info from Parker, thinking this is a good place to start?

The smallest restriction diameter on the -16 fittings I was planning to use is .844''.

Screen Shot 2019-03-28 at 11.17.40 AM.png

old timer · Mar 28, 2019

Hi
John is right about the summator. The plumbing is under the machine, there is a small valve block with 2 relief valves. The 2 output lines from the pumps run across to the valve (the lines are also where you check pump pressures) These add oil flow to the valve banks that needs it.
I have installed a lot of different attachments on Drotts, use the fast crowd section and plumb the return by installing a "T" into the return side of valve block. If you use -16 for both sides you end up with around 35 to 40 gpm and about 35 to 40 psi back pressure.(actual flow testing) I have found that going to a smaller pressure line only creates heat. Each valve block returns thru it's own port of the swivel, port #1 and #8.
This is a 1 way setup. What I have done for 2 way is locking back the "digmore" and using that circuit. (used "T"s and disconnects)
A few things, install a filter on the case drain out of the attachment, make sure that you install new hydraulic filters before you first try the attachment ( 1 at cooler, other at tank) I agree with John, the performance wont be fantastic, but I think it would be acceptable.
Be prepared to weld up the wrist-o-twist cylinder eyes, they break regularly with a cleanup bucket, never mind a brusher. I have always advised customers to not use it with anything other than a cleanup bucket.
And I will add 1 little tip about your electrical swivel. If you loosen the brush holders and swing them out of the way(DON'T LOSE THE BRUSH SPRINGS) cut about 1 foot of emery cloth lengthwise the same width as the ring, you can clean up all the rings without taking out the swivel. We used to do that in the field to solve a lot of issues.
P.S. I have done exactly the same thing for an secondary starter circuit.
Good luck and keep us posted.

John C. · Mar 28, 2019

Got back home a bit ago and just now having time to read some posts. I'll try to answer the questions as I can.

The summator does not bleed pressure off a circuit. It bleeds flow off but keeps the pressure the same. Say you were putting out 40 gallons a minute at 2,500 PSI that should be around a hundred horsepower. So if you are swinging, boom up and stick out at the same time as your mulcher head is running the hydraulics, it would likely overload the engine. What the summator does is drop your flow at 2,500 PSI to say 30 gallons which is about 75 horsepower. The other 10 gallons goes back to the tank at just a few PSI so the horsepower requirement is reduced.

I messed up the math this morning before I had enough coffee to get my brain cells to work properly. The quick way to calculate hydraulic horsepower is 1 gallon a minute at 1,000 PSI is approximately equal to 1 horsepower. So 40 gallons a minute times 2.6 equals 104 horsepower. In your mulcher case, 35 times 4 equals 140 HP. I've found over the years this to be more of a real world calculation because of of the parasitic loads, line loss, bearing resistance, friction loads from things like cylinder packing and so on. In your case 50 times 2.6 equals 130 HP. Net horsepower on your engine is 128. That doesn't leave you any room for boom, swing and stick functions. In that case your summator is going to drop the flow and everything becomes marginal.

Last point is mulching power. You are going to be operating the mulcher at just over half of the design operating pressure. The mulcher will take a long time to spool up when you turn it on and will spool down quickly when you start putting a load on it grinding brush. The flow correlates to the speed the drum is turning "at no load". The amount of power you apply to grinding brush is correlated to the working pressure of the implement.

So can you install a mulcher on your machine and make it work? My answer is yes you can. Will it work in such a way as you get good production in a way that you can make money doing? Probably not. If you are just doing it for your own use to work your own land then I think you have a good project where you are learning and building something to be proud of when you are done.

Robertogatos · Mar 28, 2019

Okay! Think I'm getting closer to having this sorted out now. Thanks again for all the help John and O.T.

Went up and took a look at the machine, then drove down to the hydraulic shop to take some measurements of fittings so I can size my hard lines appropriately, and figure out the plumbing. Heres what I found:

The hoses going into, and out of the hydraulic motor on the mulching head are -16, the most restrictive point in a -16 hose assembly is .75'', where the crimped-on hose-end inserts into the ID of the flexible hose. Knowing that, there would be no reason to go to any larger ID plumbing for the pressure side correct? Anything over .75 ID would have no benefit?

But what about on the return line?

If I plumb it like the red line shows, the return will have to go through the valve block, and I can't see a reason to go to go larger than -16 hose assemblies. If I plumb it along the green route, I could see benefit stepping up to -24, where the smallest restriction is about 1.25'' (probably the ID of the 1.5'' hard return line?) for the whole return from the mulching head. The point of the on / off ball valve would be to have the ability to move fluid both directions if I ever had the need for an attachment to do that. Keeping in mind the output on the mulching head motor is a -16 hose assembly, is going bigger than that pointless on the return?

old timer · Mar 28, 2019

The reason for not returning from the mulcher to the valve is twofold. the fast crowd is solenoid operated, 1 way flow. You would have to setup another linkage system and add a circuit relief. Secondly the back pressure would increase, the passages thru a spool are a lot smaller. I setup a slasher/grapple with that kind of setup, ended up with over 400 psi on the return. it was a gear motor so it could take the pressure but it sure heated up the oil. When installing a concrete hammer (Tramac 501) we tried a -24 return, lowered the back pressure by about 5 psi, increased flow by a couple of gallons, and did not change the oil temps. Only my opinion but the added cost and difficulty of installation is not worth it.
If you are planning to the multiple use route, see if a local hydraulic shop has a Husco circuit relief, then take a look under the cab at the linkage, you can set up the control levers for joystick type operation, that lets you have a free pedal. Only problem is finding the brass bell-cranks on the shafts (look under the cab and you will see what I am talking about) But again, anything is doable with the right determination,and the appropriate application of expletives.
Hope this helps

John C. · Mar 29, 2019

One other thing you need to consider. A mulcher will require a motor spool to allow the rotating parts to slow down on their own when you want to stop mulching. A motor spool opens both A and B ports to tank when the spool is in neutral. You won't find a motor spool on that machine so you will have to add it down stream from whatever you use for a supply circuit

Robertogatos · Mar 29, 2019

John C. said:
The summator does not bleed pressure off a circuit. It bleeds flow off but keeps the pressure the same. Say you were putting out 40 gallons a minute at 2,500 PSI that should be around a hundred horsepower. So if you are swinging, boom up and stick out at the same time as your mulcher head is running the hydraulics, it would likely overload the engine. What the summator does is drop your flow at 2,500 PSI to say 30 gallons which is about 75 horsepower. The other 10 gallons goes back to the tank at just a few PSI so the horsepower requirement is reduced.

Got it. Read your last post again, and this makes perfect sense to me now. Thanks for clarifying that. Whats odd though, is I have stalled the engine when I put too great of a load on the system in the past. Is there another factor that would cause this?

John C. said:
I messed up the math this morning before I had enough coffee to get my brain cells to work properly. The quick way to calculate hydraulic horsepower is 1 gallon a minute at 1,000 PSI is approximately equal to 1 horsepower. So 40 gallons a minute times 2.6 equals 104 horsepower. In your mulcher case, 35 times 4 equals 140 HP. I've found over the years this to be more of a real world calculation because of of the parasitic loads, line loss, bearing resistance, friction loads from things like cylinder packing and so on. In your case 50 times 2.6 equals 130 HP. Net horsepower on your engine is 128. That doesn't leave you any room for boom, swing and stick functions. In that case your summator is going to drop the flow and everything becomes marginal.

Ok, think I'm following you, so the head was originally spec'd to run at roughly 140hp? 35gpm*4.0, right?

Assuming the 35GPM at 2600 PSI I'll have roughly 91hp eaten up just with the head. Now I see what you mean about the other functions of the machine becoming overly sluggish, I'm only left with 37 Hp for everything else. Will the summator still bleed off flow to the reservoir with the head spinning though? Only if I try to move too much volume, in multiple circuits and overload the system?

What I'm not understanding, is that Case says the machine can flow 112 GPM @ 2600 but that hydraulic equivalent is way beyond the engines power rating. I'm missing something here...

John C. said:
Last point is mulching power. You are going to be operating the mulcher at just over half of the design operating pressure. The mulcher will take a long time to spool up when you turn it on and will spool down quickly when you start putting a load on it grinding brush. The flow correlates to the speed the drum is turning "at no load". The amount of power you apply to grinding brush is correlated to the working pressure of the implement.

Copy that, GPM=HP and PSI=Torque

John C. said:
So can you install a mulcher on your machine and make it work? My answer is yes you can. Will it work in such a way as you get good production in a way that you can make money doing? Probably not. If you are just doing it for your own use to work your own land then I think you have a good project where you are learning and building something to be proud of when you are done.

Shooting for the last half of that! I spent the previous summer chainsawing and tossing wood / brush into a morbark model 17 chipper. Quickly came to the realization I'd never finish the fuel reduction on the property without some faster tools.

Thanks John!

Robertogatos · Mar 29, 2019

John C. said:
One other thing you need to consider. A mulcher will require a motor spool to allow the rotating parts to slow down on their own when you want to stop mulching. A motor spool opens both A and B ports to tank when the spool is in neutral. You won't find a motor spool on that machine so you will have to add it down stream from whatever you use for a supply circuit

Copy that, think there is one mounted on the head now? Lines on the right side come from the machine, lines on the left go to the mulching head motor. Could you tell me what the purpose of the valve I circled is?

Robertogatos · Mar 29, 2019

old timer said:
The reason for not returning from the mulcher to the valve is twofold. the fast crowd is solenoid operated, 1 way flow. You would have to setup another linkage system and add a circuit relief.

Copy that. There doesn't look to be a way to control that valve with the existing turn buckles in the cab, so was thinking I'd add an air solenoid to control the valve if I chose to add a two way circuit down the line.

old timer said:
Secondly the back pressure would increase, the passages thru a spool are a lot smaller. I setup a slasher/grapple with that kind of setup, ended up with over 400 psi on the return. it was a gear motor so it could take the pressure but it sure heated up the oil.

So the red arrow will stay capped for now, blue (-16 aka .75 hose I.D.) will feed the head, and return will be Teed into the green line (Approx 1.25'' ID). This sound right?

old timer said:
When installing a concrete hammer (Tramac 501) we tried a -24 return, lowered the back pressure by about 5 psi, increased flow by a couple of gallons, and did not change the oil temps. Only my opinion but the added cost and difficulty of installation is not worth it.

OK, good to know. Was only thinking -24 because of the 1.5'' hardline that is the return from either valve block. Guess there must be a restriction further down line that is the choke point? Possibly the oil cooler?

If I return to the green line, that flows back through the oil cooler. Did you ever consider plumbing the return from the Aux circuit to the return lines of both valve blocks? Some of the oil would bypass the cooler, but it seems like this could make a dramatic decrease in back pressure?

old timer said:
If you are planning to the multiple use route, see if a local hydraulic shop has a Husco circuit relief, then take a look under the cab at the linkage, you can set up the control levers for joystick type operation, that lets you have a free pedal. Only problem is finding the brass bell-cranks on the shafts (look under the cab and you will see what I am talking about) But again, anything is doable with the right determination,and the appropriate application of expletives.
Hope this helps

Funny you mentioned that! The machine had a WACKY control pattern originally. Your feet would turn the carriage, and move the bucket. After getting it fired up, I immediately decided that if I couldn't get it switched over to a conventional ISO / Cat pattern the machine would have to go. It took a couple days, but thats sorted out now, and I can keep the machine because of it. HAH. Right stick moves the boom and bucket, Left stick, the stick and turn table, right foot the extend-a-hoe and left foot the wrist. I'll look more into the Husco Circuit. Thanks again!

Robertogatos · Mar 29, 2019

When I was climbing around the machine today, I was puzzled by this arrangement. The pressure in for the 3 spool valve block runs through this hydraulic motor, before it enters the valve block. Thinking this drove the compressor for the AC system at some point? Its since been partially disassembled, and all thats left is the motor, and assembly mounted to the back of the cab. No compressor to be found.

Blue arrow is pressure from the swivel, red is pressure to the 3 spool valve block.

Was also wondering What you would recommend doing about these spray lube canisters? I can't find them for sale anywhere nowadays, so I'm looking for a substitute to lube the ring gear on the turn table. Any suggestions?

Are you still running any of these machines old timer? What kind of hours were you racking up on them?

John C. · Mar 29, 2019

First item; horsepower summation was basically a stop gap system before variable displacement piston pumps became widely available. The summator will drop off flow when you have high pressure and high flow at the same time. The engine will likely run the mulcher by itself just fine except for the possible overspeed issue. However, you won't get anything done just running the mulcher, you have to be able to boom, stick out and swing at the same time. Now the summator will react once those pressure raise to high points. But the engine RPM will still drop if you don't reach those high pressures because of the combination of total flow and pressure. The summator helped reduce horsepower requirements in max output situations for positive displacement pumps but wasn't perfect. Yes, you can still kill the engine in low RPM situations.

The motor spool is a directional control valve spool. It is what you would move in order to send oil to the head. I can only guess that the cartridge in the photo is a circuit relief.

old timer · Mar 29, 2019

Hi
About the picture, leave the plug in, take off the existing hose (that loops over to the other valve bank) and use that port to feed the mulcher. Make sure you remove and cap the other end, it goes to the crowd circuit. We used to remove the -24 steel line and tig weld a -16 JIC fitting on it.
You are right, that is the compressor drive for the A/C, it was supplied to Case by someone else, I can't remember who.
Symquip was a division of Case or Tennico I think. Might trying to contact Manitex (Badger equipment) they are in Winona MN. Case sold the 1085 manufacturing to them, Lock stock and barrel, parts stock, jigs, and blueprints. It is basically standard open gear grease. As for the life of these machines, I have seen them with over 20,000 hours. I have also seen them wrecked in 5,000 hours
all depends on how well they are maintained. Engines will have no problem getting 10,000 hours with regular service and rolling in bottom end bearings at 5,000 hours. Transmissions usually last 8- 10,000 hours (if not abused) Around here there are a few left, 2 that I know of are actually 40B models, that's from the late 70's with close to 25,000 hours on the clock. The oldest 1085B I know has 40,000 hours but it's waiting for a slew bearing, and for me to agree to install.
Looking back a few posts, we did think about returning to both valves, figured that the filter would be the choke point, so we pulled one off and pumped oil thru it. seemed as if it could do it. but after a few wobbly pops decided that it wasn't worth the effort. I think the word from the shop was"we are not f#!@% plumbers" and then opened another. but that was something I did on 1085C's to lower the back pressure.
As for parts that are not off the shelf you might try the Manitoba Case dealer Hitrac, or Red Head out of Saskatchewan. They might still have something on their shelf.
And on the mulcher valve block, that is a crossover relief.Allows the barrel to keep on spinning even when you shut off the oil to it. Think centrifugal force, on the current mulchers it is also a way to make it directional.
Hope this answers a few questions for you

polarisbryan · Mar 16, 2020

Robertogatos said:
Hello, first time post, but long time reader.

This is my first large excavator, plan is to use it primarily as a carrier for a 48'' Pro-Mac mulching head to knock back brush on our ranch. Other functions will be some occasional digging, and lifting / material handling while we're without a crane. The machine has some nice features like the DigMor (extend-a-hoe), Wrist-O-twist (bucket swivel), Cab heater / AC, rear axle locker, and 4 corner stabilizers. The machine is as close to a new as you can get, and everything is in excellent condition / appearance, minus the paint job that became a bit faded a bit under the desert sun. Best part is the machine only has gathered 200 hours!

It was in non running condition when we took delivery, and after going through all the fluids/filters, new tires, she's up and moving around. I already spent a few days switching the controls over to a conventional S.A.E. / Cat pattern, which makes the machine actually workable. The Case pattern was a joke, but after switching over, I'm right at home.

Now that the carriers up and moving I'm working on getting the work tools setup, and quirks of the tractor sorted. This is where I could use some help...

I'm trying to find a bucket that fits this machine, but i'm not having the best of luck... Is there a class of bucket I should be looking for? Something used would be preferable to save some money. I'd assume the machine would use the same bucket mounted directly to the stick / linkage as it would the Wrist-O-Twist attachment... The pins mounting the wrist-o-twist to the stick / linkage are all just under 2'' diameter. Something like 1.985''. The odd thing is that the pin diameters for the wrist-o-twist / quick coupler are larger than that, at roughly 2 1/16''. The Wrist-O-Twist / quick coupler clamps down on one of the pins (furthest from the machine) but not the one closest. Seems the bucket would have a ton of clatter If I were to use the 1.985'' pins that would mount the bucket directly to the stick. Is this big of a tolerance necessary for the quick coupler to be effective? Whats the best thing to do here? Am capable of machining / fabricating pins / mounts but I'd like to build something that would fit other machines in the future, and conform to a convention. Do any machines still use this pin diameter / width / spacing? The pins are 14'' on center, stick opening width is 11 15/16'' and bucket ram linkage width is 7 5/16''.

What would be a good size bucket for this machine? It weighs 40k and am mostly digging in fractured sand stone. For reference, our 580 super l swings a 24'' bucket nicely through just about everything around here. I'd also like to get a bucket to use for loading piles of gravel into trucks. What would be the biggest I could go on this, only moving bulk fluffy materials to quickly load trucks?

Is there also a resource to look at what service bulletins were released regarding this machine? I know there were some, but case dealers haven't been very much help on any of these points.

Thanks for any of you input, I'm looking forward to getting some time on this machine!

I recently purchased a 1085 cruise air badger , how did you switch the case style controls ?

old timer · Mar 18, 2020

I am assuming that's a 1085C, and you want to change the crowd and hoist. The simple method is to change the position of the pilot lines at the control valve. Just look at the valve and follow the pressure lines to find the 2 valves. Be aware that if it has the fast hoist setup still installed (there will be a "T" on the boom up pilot line) keep the "T" in place. If it is setup for stick and pedal you have a lot more lines to change. And yes they can be setup that way.
Patience is the key, and mark ALL the lines before you start!
Hope this helps

polarisbryan · Mar 20, 2020

old timer said:
I am assuming that's a 1085C, and you want to change the crowd and hoist. The simple method is to change the position of the pilot lines at the control valve. Just look at the valve and follow the pressure lines to find the 2 valves. Be aware that if it has the fast hoist setup still installed (there will be a "T" on the boom up pilot line) keep the "T" in place. If it is setup for stick and pedal you have a lot more lines to change. And yes they can be setup that way.
Patience is the key, and mark ALL the lines before you start!
Hope this helps

Correct sir 1085c badger , I'm wanting to switch the joy stick pattern iso /ase. Swap this machine is different that my other equipment pattern wise.
The extendable boom is foot pedal control.

MayaWilson · Mar 22, 2020

Suppose it might work. I've never worked with one of those Case tilters, and they don't look like they're the best built attachment out there.

old timer · Mar 24, 2020

To change ISO/SAE pattern is simple, swap the pilot lines between hoist and crowd(stick) at the main control valve. I have done lots of them. REMEMBER 2 things, mark all the hoses before you start and look for the "T" at the hoist pilot line (stays with the main control valve) Add a dash of patience and you have a setup you like!
The extension can be left where it is, it's called a "Digmore Stick" (from the old Case days)
Hope this helps

Putting a Case 1085B Cruz-Air Back Into Service

Robertogatos

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