3 things to know to operate

I agree with the key stand out points about knowing or being a real operator. I have seen a lot of these so called operators in this industry. There is one key that no has has mentioned that a real operator knows their machine inside and out. Know it's capabilities and what makes it tick. Lube and maintain it .Wear it out and don't break it. Your cab is your office not a garbage dump.Good operators take care of their machines and some even treat them better than women.:usa

Knowing the mechanics of the machine itself is a mechanics job not an operator. Anymore that the average driver of a car on the road knows the mechanics. And besides most unions won't allow you to even check the oil let alone grease the machine. The only mechanics that an operator needs to know is what happens when the lever is pulled or released, and how to start and stop it. Operating is everything to do with how to do the job with the machine, and how to use it productively not wasting diesel and time.

Well I will say that comming from a family owned business and only 4 employees at that, we did EVERYTHING to our machines. Each one of us had his own machine, we all could run it but each machine had a main guy. Dad and my uncle Harvey on the two dozers, Grandpa or myself on the self loading scraper and myself on the excavator and we have a few other machines as well. We did everything on them from daily greasing and lube checks to overhauls and under carriage. If we had to have someone do even just the major things we could never have been able to stay in business. Somtimes the transmissions, tourque convertors, etc would be sent out but mostly we did everything ourselves and you knew by running the machine what was getting wore or weak.
Just my two cents.
Jason

Operator?????? Or simply an 'aimer'.

Hi, Folks.
These last two posts, from Dozer575 and TD15C DozerMan, intrigue me. They demonstrate two totally different approaches to operating. I have to say that TD15C's approach is the one that I grew up with and have worked with pretty much all my life. If all I had known of the 'workings' of the machine was that it turned when you pulled a lever or turned the steering wheel, I would not have been able to hold down a LOT of the jobs I have held down over the years. Nor would I have been able to do them as well as I did do them.

On a couple of occasions, I would even have been faced with a 20 mile walk home if I could not have managed to get a machine going again without a fitter. I once took the front cover off the control box of a Cat 12E grader, removed a broken blade lift control shaft and swapped the scarifier control shaft into the blade lift and put it all back together to get home and I did it with no more than a 10" adjustable wrench and the bottom half of a four gallon drum. Dozer575, let's see one of your union site pretty boys do that.

Quote from Dozer575: "The only mechanics that an operator needs to know is what happens when the lever is pulled or released, and how to start and stop it. Operating is everything to do with how to do the job with the machine, and how to use it productively not wasting diesel and time." Unquote.

I beg to differ here, Dozer575. I personally would not hire an operator - any operator - especially not to put out on his own, unless I knew that he had at least a pretty fair understanding of the mechanics of the machine. Unless he does have this understanding of its internal workings, there is a good chance that he may miss some potentially very expensive fault in the early stages of development and thus contribute to a mechanical disaster.

If the prospective employee happened to be a pretty promising beginner, I could possibly be tempted to take him or her on and spend a bit of time with them to help them gain this sort of understanding in order to make a more useful - and trustworthy - operator out of them.

On top of all this, you say you want to buy your own machine and start contracting on your own. I hope that you know a little more about the machine you choose than what happens when you pull a particular lever or you may not be in business for very long.

I also have to say that I query your belief in your own post in light of your statement that you do want to buy your own machine. But it makes no matter to me. It's you that will be footing the bills for it all. This puts it in my 'N.M.P' folder - Not My Problem.

I have worked with many operators that thought that they knew the mechanics of the machine. "thought"
But be honest. Just like you or anyone supposedly knowing how the machine operates and the mechanics there of, and then someone comming out and saying you are not a mechanic unless you know chemistry and metallurgy, electronics and have a degree in mechanical and electrical engineering, is like you saying a person can not be an operator unless they know the machine inside and out. Yeah that knowledge makes them a more valuable employee, but to grade and clear or what ever on a piece of heavy equipment that person does not need to know the intermost parts of his/her machine and such things as failure analysis, or the need to know how to operate a machine tool to accomplish the given job as a mechanic. Oh but weren't we talking about an operator? That is like saying you are not a good carpenter if you don't understand the intermost workings of your skill saw or table saw, and how to rewind the electric motor. Come on. You can nit pic any profession with that logic.

And then there is the constant comment that it is a seat of your pants deal. I fully agree, but that just gets you doing the first 2 items, moving the machine and working the machine. The seat of your pants isn't gona tell you how to go about doing the job at hand. Cause to figure that part out you don't even need to be on the machine.

On the subject of being a mechanic. I can turn wrenches and when hyd hoses blow, welds break, filters are clogged or other minor problems I can usually take care of the task but I do not classify myself as a mechanic. I've helped overhaul engines and removed tourque convertors and rear ends but usually send that stuff to the professionals. If it gets in to deep, as Dozer 575 was saying most of us are not going to jump into it anyways, cept for maybe removing it from the machine. I know if i were hiring, and I just got hired by a company as some of you know, I would like a person to be well rounded and able to help out with just bout anything within the company.

Now, on to the Union thing. The man from which i learned a great deal from on excavators retired from the union Local 139(wisconsin) and he worked for Rock Road, they do about anything with highway construction. Don had spent over 30 years working for one of the local contractors in town, they did paving, earth moving, water and sewer work, etc. He, like most of the other guys worked on the equipment during the winter months and when he went to work for Rock Road the first thing they asked him was if he could weld and had a basic understanding of turning wrenches. They also gave him a greease gun and told him, "Go wear this thing out"(he still has it). They had many full time mechanics but if it were somthing minor they did the repair themsleves, cause the full time wrenches were usually busy with other things.

Another guy i know, runs front end loader for Wingra Stone in Madison, hes at the rock quarries and they are also Operators Union 139. I asked him one day bout working on equipment or did they have the mechanics do it all. He said they same as Don did. They have enough large projects to work on that if we could handle the task we got the tools out of our truck or job shack and went to it.

Oh, almost forgot. My uncle Roger worked for a number of road outfits, all union 139 and his own truck was always full of tools and stuff that they needed out on the job site and if somthing broke down they tore it apart and fixed it. Last one he worked for was WK Construction.

So this goes to show you that even the UNION guys still turn wrenches. If you think I am making this up just look up the companies, they are all in operation and all the guys i listed are alive and kicking.
Jason

Are we talking about OPERATORS or lever attendants?

Hi, Dozer 575.
Are we talking about OPERATORS or lever attendants here?

Operators, they run equipment to accomplish the job at hand, mechanics drive service trucks on site to fix the machine that isn't working correctly or is broke. It really isn't rocket science to figure it out.

Though when a mechanic drives on the site in the truck, is he a mechanic or just a wrench and truck attendant and have a good line of BS?
A bad mechanic and an operator that thinks he knows the mechanics can do more damage to a machine than someone that is smart enough to know to leave it alone.

If I was hiring an operator, I would want him for that. I would not want him welding chicken sh__ droppings welds on my machines. Nor would I want him trying to work on a hydraulic system and dragging it around in the dirt. Or would I want him removing the airfiter to blow it out right there with the engine running. Hey I have seen it all. Or would I want an operator that thought he was a mechanic trying to remove an 855 cummins and wrapping the chain around the fuel filter bracket as one of the pick points. Come on.
Yeah some of us can do it all but not all can or should.
Can your wife or teenage daughter change a tire let alone, know how to change a CV shaft or do a pressure check on an automatic transmission, in their cars? If not why are they driving it, they are not a qualified driver if they don't know the mechanics and how to fix it.
Gosh I had a good friend that was a pretty good mechanic, that I would not want working on any of my stuff. Why? He was not careful with the parts, I would not want parts worth hundreds tossed around, hammered on pryed on and gouged and scratched. And that is what most all in the business do.

Operators. lever attendants and mechanics.

Hi, Dozer575.
If you re-read my post, you may notice that I didn't say I would want an operator who COULD repair an engine or a powershift transmission. What I said was that I would be looking for operators who had some understanding of the mechanics of their machines and I gave my reason for this line of thinking. Another reason for this line of thinking is that it often helps if the operator of a broken down machine can give the mechanic a hand with the repairs and this helps to keep the operator gainfully employed during the break down.

I grant you that a person does not need to know the inner workings of a machine to know how to operate it. BUT, in my experience, the novice who can handle a machine but doesn't know the workings of it will often do a LOT more damage than an experienced operator who does have some understanding of what effect his operating technique and/or the operating conditions might be having on the machine and takes due care to minimise those effects.

For a LARGE part of my operating career, I have been required to be able to weld, to do my own maintenance and to do many minor repairs. This was pretty standard for much of the country where I started my operating career, 200, 300, 400 miles from any dealer service centre and often not much less to any reliable mechanic. Would you want somebody who could only operate the machine in such circumstances? The companies that I worked for didn't.

About two weeks ago, my current employer bought a 'new' second-hand Cat 943 track loader sight unseen from a dealer 400 miles away. The machine works quite well but was a trifle gutless. It also would not suck more than about 1/2 the fuel out of the tank before it started sucking air. When I told the boss, he immediately said it would be the pick-up pipe in the tank. I said I thought it might be the lift pump. He had the Cat mechanic take a look at it. It turned out to be a piece of grit stuck under a valve in the lift pump. The Cat mechanic said he was surprised it even started, let alone ran with enough power to work. I reminded him that the top half of the fuel tank is above the level of the lift pump. He then agreed that that would account for it starting and running until it got down to half a tank. Now if I didn't have any understanding of the mechanics of the machine, what chance would I have of being able to point the mechanic in the right direction like that?

During wet weather, I get pulled back into the workshop to do repairs, maintenance and welding that we don't get much chance to do when it is dry. At these times, there may be three or four of us in the workshop and I am pretty much in charge when the boss isn't there and consulted a fair bit when he is. I also usually get told which machines need what doing to them and get left to do it the best way I can see how. This is because the company has 14 machines and I normally only get to operate 3 or 4 of them as the rest have regular operators on them full-time. And just for the record, my welding isn't bird droppings and I haven't yet stuffed up a transmission repair.

With regard to my wife or teenage daughter doing repairs, I don't have either but both my ex-wife and my last partner COULD change a tyre if needed. And I think it is a little ridiculous to compare driving a car on a public road to operating a large and very expensive machine in rough conditions.

You are entitled to your views and I would be the first to defend that right but that doesn't mean that I am going to agree with you or lie down and let you tell me how it is. I have an odd hour or two in the saddle of one or two different types, makes and models of machines on a different application or three here and there myself and I'd like to kid myself that I haven't entirely wasted all those years by learning nothing but how to point the machine in a certain direction.

As to back up my own post, I myself do not call myself a mechanic and am usually the first to call one if somthing major occurs. But growing up I've learned from my dad, uncle and many other guys that if you don't know how to do somthings on fixing then you are not much good by yourself or in a small company. Just last year I removed the entire differential on our JD 860 Scraper, very large undertaking. Removed the to ends and loaded the pumpkin up and took it to our John Deere Dealer in Dubuque IA to actually do the repair work. Engines, usually do them in chassis. As far as welding, well I learned to weld when I was 12, did it all through high school and even went and got a one year technical degree in welding. I know that doesn't make you a good welder, but I also got state certified. Even with all that, if somthing major and in a more difficult location breaks, I call our local welding shop to come up and fix it. I'm not saying that a good operator has to be a welder, fabricator, engine tech, computer nerd, know it all to do his job. But the company I work for is pretty large in size, and its just a branch of a larger firm and they said they need guys that can do a number of different jobs. To quote DOZER 575 "I've seen it all", when you think you have seen it all you are full of it. I will agree with you fully, I've seen first hand guys that have pulled the same stunts as you mentioned and usually after that they get a huge rear end chewing, and when it comes time for winter lay offs they are one of the first to be done. Not all of us are alike, I have a cousin who from the time he was 10 was tearing dirt bikes apart, all the way up to now, working on semis and trucks,and well still dirt bikes and his brother, well you have him go get a 9/16 wrench out of the tool box, he will look at everything from a 1/4 to a 1". No one wants to fight, but if i don't agree I will speak my mind.

Dozer575 said:

Knowing the mechanics of the machine itself is a mechanics job not an operator. Anymore that the average driver of a car on the road knows the mechanics. And besides most unions won't allow you to even check the oil let alone grease the machine. The only mechanics that an operator needs to know is what happens when the lever is pulled or released, and how to start and stop it. Operating is everything to do with how to do the job with the machine, and how to use it productively not wasting diesel and time.

Click to expand...

Dozer 575,
This is a very narrowminded and stupid point of view. Don´t you really think that an operator who also knows the mechanics of the machine is a better employee and is a good help in e.g. diagnosing the machine? Or is it maybe all about getting some ´lever monkeys´ for as low vages as possible?

I´m not saying by this that an operator necceserely has to carry out repair work him self, but in diagnosing, maintaining and knowing the limits og what a machine is capable of it sure is very good to have some technical knowledge. And compairing driving heavy machinery to driving a car is a bit overoing it in my humble opinion.

And unions forbidding operators to grease and check oil levels!!? Is is really like this in the US? Then who should check oil levels?
Forgive my curiousity

Hjolli said:

And unions forbidding operators to grease and check oil levels!!? Is is really like this in the US? Then who should check oil levels?
Forgive my curiousity

Click to expand...

You'd be surprised at the limitations some Unions impose on the workers. In my opinion, it is all in place to put more men to work who will be paying dues and administration fees to the hall. Depending on the size of the company and the contract they have, either the mechanic or a dedicated oiler (whose sole job is to check the oil and grease the machine) checks the oil. Check out the thread on Unions we have running.

I agree an operator who had knowledge of the mechanical workings of the machine will be a better operator. I know it has for me. I understand what my hands are doing to the machine, and better understand the limitations of the machine avoiding abuse. I can also make the machine work most efficiently without putting undo stress on any of the components. Plus, I know sooner when something is wrong and can stop before catastrophic damage occurs rather than run the machine until it breaks.

The more you know about anything you're doing, the better you will be at it. The comparison was made about drivers not knowing the mechanics of cars and I will agree, many have no clue how cars work. There are also a number of bad drivers in our population, and a great number that get by ok without knowing. But there are some who know their cars inside and out, know how slight changes will effect the driving of the car, these are the people who get paid to drive them most Sunday afternoons and get paid well.

Steve Frazier said:

I agree an operator who had knowledge of the mechanical workings of the machine will be a better operator. I know it has for me. I understand what my hands are doing to the machine, and better understand the limitations of the machine avoiding abuse. I can also make the machine work most efficiently without putting undo stress on any of the components. Plus, I know sooner when something is wrong and can stop before catastrophic damage occurs rather than run the machine until it breaks.

Click to expand...

Very well said. I have said many times in this forum that I'm not a mechanic, but I can relate to the above statement, and also agree.

Couldn't - and didn't - say it better myself

Hi, Steve.

Steve Frazier said:

I agree an operator who had knowledge of the mechanical workings of the machine will be a better operator. I know it has for me. I understand what my hands are doing to the machine, and better understand the limitations of the machine avoiding abuse. I can also make the machine work most efficiently without putting undo stress on any of the components. Plus, I know sooner when something is wrong and can stop before catastrophic damage occurs rather than run the machine until it breaks.

Click to expand...

I couldn't - and didn't - say it better myself. This is exactly what I mean by an operator having some mechanical understanding of his/her machine. Like Grader4me, I do not call myself a mechanic but I do have a pretty fair undertsnading of how the various machines that I operate work and what makes them do what they do - or are supposed to do.)

Dozer 575,
I'm also with EZ TRBO here. If you think you've seen it all, there is still at least one thing that you haven't yet learned.

"If you ever stop learning, you're dead from the neck up".

Personally, I have 42 1/2 years of seat time now on a great many types, makes and models of machines in a wide range of applications and I've seen and done a LOT but I'm NOWHERE NEAR having seen and done it all. So may I ask, with the greatest of respect, how you have managed to cram IT ALL into what I'd guess are a few less years?

Over the time that you have been posting here, you have put up some pretty good posts, asked some good questions and given some good information. You have also put up a few posts that I and others have taken issue with. That is fine as we are all entitled to our own opinions and ideas. However, I would also point out that you have been 'jumped on' and disagreed with more than any other single contributor to this site, at least since I've been posting here and that's been longer than you have been here. Can you think of any reason why that might be?

I'll leave you to think about that - if you want to out in the mental effort.

Hjolli said:

And unions forbidding operators to grease and check oil levels!!? Is is really like this in the US? Then who should check oil levels?
Forgive my curiousity

Click to expand...

Yeah....is it really like that here? :beatsme

I've been a Union member for 21 years....
This is new to me.... I've never seen it, in fact if you don't or refuse to check oil/water/pump grease, the office/shop will find out.
They pay every operator to do these things.
And every operator knows this when he accepts the job.
Those who take advantage of this extra pay without doing their entire job end up back on the out of work list.

This equipment that is run by many different operators is how I earn my living.
Way to often, it's me that deals with the abuse, damage and neglect these machines go through.
I do everything I can to make sure any piece of equipment that I run is in good working order.
It's economically cheaper for me to make repairs/adjustments out in the field rather than haul a machine back to the yard.
Our mechanics already have their hands full.
So I (get paid) and do what I can to help out.

There are times when this means letting the office know about operators that abuse equipment, neglect equipment and just make the Company look bad. Those are not the kind of people we need.
I have little or no tolerance for that kind of operator.
Regardless of what another operator might think of me...I could really care less. And when it comes to whomevers rules, take it somewhere else.
If you refuse to do the job the way that was agreed upon, or purposely abuse the equipment, your down the road.
I'll see to it....and I don't have a problem doing that.
Remember, I came to work here to make money....not friends.

Thats how I take care of those who pay my wages.
In turn, they take care of me.

Kodak Faults.

Hi, Folks.
One thing that nobody has mentioned yet is the effect that some contractors have on their employees by taking what I call the 'Kodak Fault' approach to reported machine problems. Unless it a 'biggie', some contractors have a habit of telling their employess, "Let it develop", or something similar. Hence the Kodak Fault.

Now what message does this send to the poor worker?

And, by NOT having some mechanical understanding of their machine, an unaware operator will simply do this anyway. A fault that could have been picked up on by a GOOD operator and fixed early will go undetected/unreported until it becomes a HUGE expense.

Which would you rather have happen with YOUR machine? Early detection? Or disaster?

RollOver Pete said:

Yeah....is it really like that here? :beatsme

Click to expand...

The first day I worked for a construction company in Westchester County, I walked to the truck and went to check the oil. I was stopped by the shop steward and told that was not my job, it was the "oiler's". His job was to grease everything and check the oil in the morning. He did light mechanical work the rest of the day.

Not every company I worked for had oilers, just the larger ones. If you were on a job site and someone left a tool in your way, you couldn't pick it up and move it, a laborer had to. The unions in NYC and Westchester County are very tight and make a big issue of a guy doing something outside of his job description, regardless of how slight it seemed.

I have never worked union but I have worked for two different large outfits that are the same as Steve described. All you did was operate. All the fueling, greasing and maintenance was someone else's job and if you tried to do it some would get right uptight about it.

With out repeating what others have written, I would have to side with operators have a basic understanding of how a machine works. If you have that understanding that if the machine is making a noise that is not normal or working in a manner that is not normal is it not a big advantage to be able to first recognize that there is a problem and better yet recognize what it could be or how serious it is? I have had an employee that was operating my skid steer and while he was on it one of the pins that hold the bucket on worked it's way out. He just kept on running it and had no idea that something was wrong. It was caught at the early stages no big deal to fix. He had no idea and it became a bigger problem after continued use. Just simple things like that will save money and time. Same thing with my dump truck oor any or the other equipment. Just realizing some small problem "something doesn't look rite or sound rite" in the early stages of the problem will save money. The longer you operate a machine the better feel you should have for the way it should run.

My union allows me to be paid grease time for qualifying machines everyday before start time.I work for a small scale company.I take care of the equipment I operate.Yes I do read the manuals behind the seat and parts books also.Does this make me a mechanic or a tech? No but it gives me knowledge of proper fluid levels and different systems that make up a machine that the average guy has no clue or does not care about..For all you check nothing , fire it up, hear or see nothing park it and run guys enjoy what you do. Most Excavation company owners have been around for years and they are not fools.. I make my boss money when I operate and produce.My boss saves money when I hear or see problems before they become big. My boss has shown me his appreciation with twenty two years of steady work. and new pickups often.:usa