Deere and right to repair

Dealers that go broke happen because of the people they hired to run the company, not because of the shops that they work out of.

The policies being advanced by the manufacturers are not necessarily the policies of the dealer networks. Dealers are held to franchise contracts the determine how many things are handled. One should make the distinction of directing blame where it belongs which in this case is John Deere and other manufacturers. One point I've seen time and again over my career is that the manufacturers don't care at all if a dealership goes broke. There will be another fish come along shortly to take up where the last one ended.

excavator said:

There are all kinds of ways that equipment manufacturer's try to make it difficult for the average person to work on their equipment. Years ago I was working on a D4B Cat and trying to diagnose a problem which was avoiding me, I had purchased the repair manual from Cat for somewhere's north of $500.00 but couldn't figure it out. I finally called Cat and had one of their techs stop by. He checked things out and told me what needed to be done. While watching him I asked how he knew what to look for and where he got his information. I said that I didn't see that in the procedure listed in the manual. He just smiled and said, "They don't put that part in the manual so that you can't figure it out. It's only available to the dealer techs."

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That is a huge problem with many OEM shop manuals, always missing many critical details.
I have had some problems in the past and have walked into the shop manager and had him point out the right person to talk to, at Cat and other makes as well, also if I didn't have the manual they let me look at theirs.
I had a car dealer one time that was a bit upset about letting me see the manuals, but they gave in.

Sorry but the dealer they talked about at the course I took spent over 1 mil on the shop and couldn't afford the payments. There were likely other problems too.
I think manufactures like JD try to help their dealers to be more profitable. Customers lose confidence if the dealer for specific equipment keeps changing. It's usually better to deal with a long term dealer.

What I learned and despised of the Freightliner Daimler trucks as to this is if a component on the Mother board fails, all you can do is exchange the Module, the guts are sealed in a form of epoxy, produces inability to access the parts unless Manufacturer rebuilds and reseals that module. Was shown the internals with a tamper proof cover removed, at Truck Centers here in MO. That so to detract from getting inside and changing parameters or functions or even repairs.

Every single manufacturer has been pulling this stunt on owners of their equipment, for 30 years or more - but it's got so much worse in the last 8-10 years, as electronics on machinery and automotive multiplied like flies around a cow pat.
The auto manufacturers were the first to go down kicking and squealing, they got dragged through the courts to make them release technical repair info. This started when auto owners had a fender-bender, and the body shop needed to access the electronics in the vehicle to be able to repair it.

The auto manufacturers were insisting that the electronics could only be serviced in the dealership - citing the big bogeyman - "safety problems", if "unauthorised" people were allowed to access the vehicles electronics.
It meant the insurance companies were having to pay to haul the vehicle back and forth between the body shop and the dealer.
It was a BS setup, and everyone knew it. I think the insurance companies initiated the lawsuit, and they won comprehensively.
JD just saw the writing on the wall for them, because the rumblings were getting louder every day. There was talk of class actions.

You have no idea how angry so many Australian farmers were, over JD's insistence on keeping a stranglehold on their technical repair information, and demanding that JD technicians be used exclusively.
As one Australian farmer said, "I bought the tractor, I own it. I should be able to repair it myself, modify if I need to, or get other, closer and more readily available repairers, to fix it."

Here in Australia, you can be a couple of hundred, to a thousand kilometres from a JD dealer. You generally find there's a wait to get a technician on site, because they're the people most under the pump.
I tried to find a local auto electronics technician to diagnose and repair a 2010 Ford Ranger with (diesel) engine problems for me recently - and all the ones I called, had a 3 to 4 week backlog of work.
Even the local Ford dealer couldn't look at the Ranger for a week, and they were the ones who finally worked on it. They still struggled to repair it satisfactorily, and gave it back to me, with it still not starting properly. I had to finish diagnosing and repairing it myself.
When you have major income relying on this high-technology equipment to function properly and be repairable in quick-smart time, you aren't going to buy it again when it causes you losses.
I find that many heavy truck owners are now looking for older trucks to recondition to as-new, as they regard them as more reliable, and less trouble to fix.

March 2018 news item - https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2018-03-11/farmers-spearhead-right-to-repair-fight/9535730

April 2019 news item - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-19/right-to-repair-tractors-taken-up-by-the-accc/12156196

At least with the Cat in my 05 I can code up a Check Engine lamp off the processor, can access codes t find out what circuit at fault but then finding diagrams or wiring numbers becomes the game, I have no true access to SIS, do not have a Fleet so Cat said NO to giving me access. Service manuals leave much out as noted or to be desired.

A year ago I was helping my BIL with the harvest and was staggered at the number of older model tractor and headers in the area of all breeds. I commented about it and his reply was until manufacturers get their shyt together over the reliability issues and right to repair those older tractors won't be traded. So in many respects manufacturers have shoot themselves in the foot.

Welder Dave said:

Sorry but the dealer they talked about at the course I took spent over 1 mil on the shop and couldn't afford the payments. There were likely other problems too.
I think manufactures like JD try to help their dealers to be more profitable. Customers lose confidence if the dealer for specific equipment keeps changing. It's usually better to deal with a long term dealer.

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You have never worked in or had anything to do with an equipment dealer shop and all you are spouting is hearsay. The first palace I worked in was ten million in 1980. The GP on that service department was a half million a month back then. The last franchised dealer shop I worked in was half or less of that first one and it was doing a million a month in 1994. Basically, an equipment dealer going broke is being run by idiots.

So what exactly will JD do to you if you repair or modify your own machine?

Another aspect of this that I haven't heard talked about much is Mother Deere's access to real-time harvest data. They have full access to all the GPS guidance and yield motoring software in these new combines. They know what field you're working in and what the bushels per acre are before it even hits the truck. Sounds like an easy way to do some insider trading on the Commodities Futures markets...

MG84 said:

Another aspect of this that I haven't heard talked about much is Mother Deere's access to real-time harvest data. They have full access to all the GPS guidance and yield motoring software in these new combines. They know what field you're working in and what the bushels per acre are before it even hits the truck. Sounds like an easy way to do some insider trading on the Commodities Futures markets...

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Exactly, that is a well known feature to those that know about it.

John C. said:

You have never worked in or had anything to do with an equipment dealer shop and all you are spouting is hearsay. The first palace I worked in was ten million in 1980. The GP on that service department was a half million a month back then. The last franchised dealer shop I worked in was half or less of that first one and it was doing a million a month in 1994. Basically, an equipment dealer going broke is being run by idiots.

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First of all you have no idea of my experience with dealerships. My dad was given a dealership for commercial turf equipment but needed a partner to help raise the money required. It was very successful and he had about a 75% market share. After about 10 years he had a heart attack and sold his share to his business partner but stayed on as a straight commission salesman. He didn't get paid unless he sold something but his vehicle was basically leased to the company. About 5 years later his partner decided he was going in a different direction and no longer required my dad. My dad let all of his customers/friends he'd known for years know he was let go. Several of them told his former partner not to even bother sending any sales people to see them. His partner sold the business about 8 years later and a couple years later the business folded. The Bobcat dealer got the dealership but they only lasted about a year. What was the market leading equipment by a big margin was completely wiped out if the province within 12 or 13 years. My dad was offered a job to go back to selling his main competition. He started his career with them but left because he couldn't stand one of the big shots. Anyway he accepted the job and increased sales 110% his 1st year back. He was still working mostly for something to do and visit his friends when he suddenly passed away. The manager where he worked said he had closer to a 90% market share when he passed away. Don't tell me I know nothing about dealerships or the importance of sales people and customer service. My dad outsold all of his competition combined in his 40+ year career in turf equipment. He set some world wide sales records too.
The owners of the shop in question may have been idiots but putting so much money into a service shop that wasn't being utilized certainly contributed to their failing. They thought they would have a monopoly on service work because of their state of the art facilty. Then there's all the overhead for this big shop. The shop was in a smaller rural area not a big city like a heavy equipment dealer would be. Unlike companies like Cat who have exclusive dealership territories AG suppliers can have multiple dealers of the same brands within relatively close proximity. Driving an hour away and getting a better deal isn't uncommon.
One of the worst failures was the dealer I purchased my skid steer from. I liked my salesman and he gave good service. A few years later when they were quite established all of a sudden I had to deal with a different salesman because I was in his territory. It can be very beneficial to have a good relationship with your sales person. I took my machine in for some minor warranty work and they washed it off on a couple occasions and said it was just an extra service they provide to their customers. It was never full of mud or really that dirty. Fast forward a couple years and I had something done and when I got the bill there was a charge of $125 for washing it. When I questioned the service manager his story changed to it's not something we always charge so you might get charged every 2nd or 3rd wash. Well then tell your customers that, don't add 2 or 3 washes from the past and surprise your customers with something that used to be a value added service. I called the day before to rent a backhoe attachment and wanted the biggest bucket they had. I get there and this idiot shop helper made a big fuss about having to pull a bucket off the outside rack 50ft. away and change it. It was a skid steer backhoe and took less than 10 minutes to change the bucket which at 1st he claimed they didn't have a larger bucket. Their customer service dropped rapidly. Then they got the Kubota dealership for AG and industrial. A couple years later they went into receivership. Should have been a gold mine with Kubota. Know of another very successful AG dealer that was sold when the owner retired and the new owners decided to bring in more lines of equipment and ran the dealership into the ground in a few years. Some people just don't know what they're doing.

DMiller said:

What I learned and despised of the Freightliner Daimler trucks as to this is if a component on the Mother board fails, all you can do is exchange the Module, the guts are sealed in a form of epoxy, produces inability to access the parts unless Manufacturer rebuilds and reseals that module. Was shown the internals with a tamper proof cover removed, at Truck Centers here in MO. That so to detract from getting inside and changing parameters or functions or even repairs.

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Electronic repair out fits have special chemicals to dissolve the "Conformal coatings" used on PCB's. That coating serves many functions, 1 to hide stuff, 2 to keep out things that can harm the circuits or short them, 3 vibration protection, 4 maybe even some ESD unless applied to the plug in terminals?

Deere's business plan looks out for Deere, customers and dealers have to look out for themselves. Like virtually all publicly owned companies, all that matters is the next quarter. Deere has told their dealerships they are either a buyer or a seller, mother deere doesn't care which. The dealerships have territories. Deere can't prevent a dealership from selling new equipment outside their territory, but they will withhold marketing allowances and other company compensation for that unit.

Our old dealer name here sold to a bigger dealer due to Deere demand as to maintaining a $1mil floorplan on machines. That after dealers had been developed in every county limiting sales volumes by any one dealer so the big dealer from N MO gets a deal on the smaller ones.
That dealer has partnered with the SE MO dealer so the two now control green machine sales in 3/4 of the state and floor plan is not unmanageable.

Good for the farmers who took a stand and took this to court. It is anti-competitive and anti-customer. It would be one thing if the dealers had enough mechanics to where they could handle the service demand. But they don't, and by attempting to restrict customers access to tools and information, OEMs and dealers are saying that they don't care about their customers and uptime. They only care about having a monopoly on parts/service revenue.

DMiller said:

What I learned and despised of the Freightliner Daimler trucks as to this is if a component on the Mother board fails, all you can do is exchange the Module, the guts are sealed in a form of epoxy, produces inability to access the parts unless Manufacturer rebuilds and reseals that module. Was shown the internals with a tamper proof cover removed, at Truck Centers here in MO. That so to detract from getting inside and changing parameters or functions or even repairs.

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It doesn't have to be the manufacturer, there are independent module repair shops, now.

chidog said:

Electronic repair out fits have special chemicals to dissolve the "Conformal coatings" used on PCB's. That coating serves many functions, 1 to hide stuff, 2 to keep out things that can harm the circuits or short them, 3 vibration protection, 4 maybe even some ESD unless applied to the plug in terminals?

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I watched a you tube vid of one of the guys that is doing the ecm repairs. He had a heat gun set up to release what ever was sealing it. Interested to see how that business takes off. I hear that a lot of shops are already seeing ecms that are no longer available. Would suck to have a 20 year old truck that you have to junk because nothing wrong with it besides a mad modular. I guess there is a huge problem with ford focus tcm's that the dealer has no idea when they will have one.

Unavailable?
How about an Allison 1000 TCM, or, better yet, a Duramax LLY FICM. Used are going for $3k UsD, as none new are available.

The basis is designed obsolescence, make it go away to drive the purchase of newer to new mechanisms. Fabick when took in ECM for review and eval as well updating the 6NZ parameters, noted these modules will be obsoleted in less than five years, next gen engine controls will be all that is available and nothing for repairs on old units, engines worthless without.