Battery Powered Equipment

[John C.]

I get construction industry spam on a regular basis and this got through the filters into my box.

https://www.equipmentworld.com/equi...on-early-this-year?oly_enc_id=9541F2856812F0D

The magazine is nothing but propaganda for the manufacturers but does provide some food for thought. The video is like all the rest spouting all the prospective positives about a new technology and none of the negative issues that always show up after someone purchases the product. What I'm looking for is some thoughts and opinions of the future of this product and others in the industry. Is battery power going to be the future?

 

[MarshallPowerGen]

The fact that a major part of "Diesel Progress" magazine this last year has been all about electric and hydrogen tech (with some diesel emissions info thrown in) says quite a bit on where the industry is going.

 

[KSSS]

I think the Gov (State and Feds) are going to push this tech moving forward. I see them mandating a certain number or percentage of electric powered equipment on projects. They could also give companies that utilize electric equipment a bid advantage for using it. As they continue to mandate electric passenger vehicles, they will do the same with heavy equipment in whatever way they can influence the market. I have seen DOE do this with hand held equipment (plate compactors and jumping jacks) already. It is coming like it or not.

 

[Evening Digger]

I've owned a Tesla electric car for 2.5 years so far. There are a lot of things about it that are wonderful. It takes being a little open minded to see them.

However, my equipment work is mostly land clearing. No real good opportunities to charge anything for me. Charging a pack like on that backhoe would need about 12 hours at 40 amps/240 volts, so it could happen overnight on a circuit for powering a moderate sized welder. I don't know how many jobsites have access to the power needed to charge a couple of these machines.

For my own use an electric machine could be great, but the charging end of things would stop my purchase.

 

[AzIron]

The case guys were sure proud of that thing I asked about how we would charge it on jobs and was told that's not an issue I dont have that kinda power at my yard to charge that machine let alone 4 of them a night

Deere also has jumped in this game and has built or is building an electric backhoe on paper as far as moving parts we should be excited about electric in my opinion no emission system and all but if it was more efficient than traditional power than the industry would convert itself because of cost but I think we are a long ways from that

Infrastructure is what will be the problem power grids already have enough problems with demand here especially during summer I dont see pluging in industrial machines every night being an easy demand but more importantly access to power on a job in the dirt stages are none existent

And if you need 12 hours charge for 8 hrs work it's not practical we have many days that we run 10 plus and hard iw would be willing to bet 8 hrs is not at 100 percent power

 

[suladas]

It would be easier for bigger companies as they could justify mobile recharge units or battery swaps. But any smaller guys would be paying someone to come out at night to charge a battery on site doesn't sound practical. Don't think there's too many yards that have enough power to charge anything like that either. Or the incredible hassle if a job is taking a bit longer then expected and the battery dies? No thanks. Even if it lasted 8 hours at 100%, what is that when it's 0F out, 6 hours? Be useless in colder temps.

 

[CM1995]

This could be a positive for my operation - wait stay with me.

Future scenario - we've been slammed with rain for 3 weeks straight and behind on the current job all the while the GC for the next job could care less and demands we be on their job TODAY - ya'll know how that goes.

Now all it will take is a simple drive by the site and call the GC saying you haven't hooked up the 240V temporary power for our equipment so call me back when have.

Seriously if this electric equipment nonsense is coming too fruition who is going to be responsible for the job site temp power and the bill? Charging these new fangled electric diggers is going to cost some serous $$. How does that play out in the design, bid, build world? Whose general conditions does this cost get added to?

However in the end we all know that we will pay for it.

 

[John C.]

I was also looking at all the greenhouse area in the cab as well. How many BTUs of AC are you going to need to keep that tolerable for an operator and how much time will that suck out of the batteries. The motor mouth was also talking reduced maintenance. Just because there isn't a diesel engine in there doesn't mean there is no maintenance. You still have to keep things like battery connections cleaned, motor cooling passages filtered and clean, hydraulic oil cool. Does this thing have a transmission? Plenty of oils to change. I noticed in the video that the machine doesn't move the implements like I've seen the standard machines do. Was the the guy in the cab doing that? The next issue is who can work on them? Does one have to be an electrician and carry a license when a problem comes up? How long do you think the battery packs will last? Vibration and bouncing are the worst thing in the world on batteries. How much would they cost and will new batteries be available?

I was talking to a Deere sales rep last week who said they have an electric or hybrid electric loader they have been demoing out. People loved the thing but they don't have a production time yet. Again, another sales pitch.

 

[suladas]

This could be a positive for my operation - wait stay with me.

Future scenario - we've been slammed with rain for 3 weeks straight and behind on the current job all the while the GC for the next job could care less and demands we be on their job TODAY - ya'll know how that goes.

Now all it will take is a simple drive by the site and call the GC saying you haven't hooked up the 240V temporary power for our equipment so call me back when have.

Seriously if this electric equipment nonsense is coming too fruition who is going to be responsible for the job site temp power and the bill? Charging these new fangled electric diggers is going to cost some serous $$. How does that play out in the design, bid, build world? Whose general conditions does this cost get added to?

However in the end we all know that we will pay for it.

It would work for companies who have enough pieces of equipment to justify adding power to charge machines, but not too many that it's impossible to have that much power, but not so few they can't justify chargers. Also consider probably every brand will use a different plug so it's not too easy. Also has to be someone who doesn't work equipment long days, is in a place where it doesn't get cold in the winter, and equipment back at the yard every night. So probably 1% of companies. Aside from the weather here I think the gas company as well as the power/water company here could probably reasonably use something like that. Equipment is always back at the yard, and no one works very long in a day, and they have the ability to raise taxes/rates on everyone to pay for whatever they want.

The commercial jobsite i'm on I couldn't even get the block heater plugged in for my mini hoe FFS...... There is not a single general here who would ever consider letting you plug in equipment like that. Are you crazy? If it costs more then a dollar it's too much money.

 

[Welder Dave]

There was an earlier thread on this machine after last years Conexpo. Along with what others are saying, how big of a portable generator do you need and how long does it take to charge? The generator might use just as much fuel and create just as much emissions as the machine would. If there's residences near by, people would complain about the noise all night from the generator. Changing batteries would be a little more complicated than a cordless driver. Vandalism is already a big problem, now you've got to deal with meth heads stealing your power cords and copper out of the machine.

For certain applications like working inside a building could be a great idea. They make electric greens mowers for golf courses so there's no noise at 6am but most courses will have at least 2 machines so they would only need to run for about 2 hours and the batteries are much smaller. Battery only units run for about 3 3/4 hours and take up to 5 hours to charge. They also have hybrid models with an engine to keep the batteries up. I think the battery only models have the charger mounted on the machine. Also saw where they mention the batteries can be over discharged.

 

[John Shipp]

The horse and steam contractors must be smiling sadly in their graves, seeing where we've all got to with this. Continuing to burn carbon rich fuels into any kind of future appears to be out of the question at this point, if you follow any of the news from world science groups and agencies such as NASA, seems they're all on same hymn sheet now. So battery power is where the hopes are pinned, until a better plan comes along. But as said, there's going to be even more singing hot wires running all over the world to take up the batten carried by diesel. Hard to imagine the quantities of batteries and "clean" electricity required. The world's navies must have valid experience of this with the quiet submarines. Perhaps it's not impossible.

 

[NepeanGC]

As it stands, I'm not a fan of the current battery tech. Given the kind of operations heavy equipment is used in, I think hydrogen fuel cell technology would be better. It requires the hydrogen fuelling stations, but fill up time is minutes, not hours. Exhaust is water.

That said, if battery technology can make some serious leaps and bounds and get 90% charge to 15-30mins, I can see that working too. The grid will have to be seriously built up to allow for it all though.

It'd be a bit ironic to have all this electric equipment charged by a massive diesel genset...

 

[John C.]

Silent subs run on electricity generated by nuclear power. Maybe that is the answer for the future?

 

[OFF]

Electric forklifts have been around for a very long time, and they work well........in a warehouse.

Along with charging issue (truck mounted generators?), I think the HVAC system would be a challenge as mentioned.

 

[AzIron]

The generators will not be the answer in the long run it will fall into commercial work having to provide power and residential work being a royal pain

But look at power infrastructure alone just for a rental company that this demand would require that's huge money just to set up one yard

 

[Shimmy1]

Charging a pack like on that backhoe would need about 12 hours at 40 amps/240 volts, so it could happen overnight on a circuit for powering a moderate sized welder. I don't know how many jobsites have access to the power needed to charge a couple of these machines.

If this is accurate, it would be unbelievable. 12 hours charging 40 amps @ 240 volts would be roughly 115 kWh of power. At $.08 per kW, it would cost about $10 per day to charge. Now, I don't own a diesel hoe that would be comparable, but I'm guessing 1.5-2 gal per hour might be average fuel consumption, so 1.5 x 12 is 18 gallons of fuel, 18 x $2 would be $36 per day for fuel. There is no way I could believe a electric hoe could be ran for a third the cost. Someone correct me if my math is wrong?

 

[KSSS]

It'd be a bit ironic to have all this electric equipment charged by a massive diesel genset...

That to me is what is interesting. Renewable power as we know it isn't even close to meeting the needs today at the current rate of power usage. Add more electric cars and heavy equipment it wont get easier. These solar power stations cant stay solvent now. So at least until we find a better way or embrace Nuclear power again, we will burn fossil fuels to create electricity so that citizens can buy electric cars so they feel better about themselves in relation to the environment. I guess that works if you don't think to deeply about it.

The US Army had GM build a prototype of their Colorado ZR2 to be run of H. According to what I read, pretty amazing vehicle, but the Army backed away from H. The ZR2ish transport vehicle they are building is running off of diesel and they just started building them for the Army. I never read on why the Army didn't pursue the Hydrogen option. Interested enough to pay for a prototype apparently, but changed their mind.

Jobsites will have to change as we know them as electrically powered machines become more normal (or required may be a better word). Temp power brought in metered for construction as one of the first things to get done. I am sure California will show us how it can/will be done (I say that mockingly).

 

[hvy 1ton]

I was talking to a Deere sales rep last week who said they have an electric or hybrid electric loader they have been demoing out. People loved the thing but they don't have a production time yet. Again, another sales pitch.

Deere put out the 944K years ago. It's diesel-electric, but I don't think it has any high voltage batteries. I don't know how many they've built, but there are 6 used for sale on machinery trader right now.

 

[treemuncher]

Think about dead batteries over 2 miles into a swamp while you have been stuck in the mud. That is NOT going to fly. Anywhere away from the grid, not a wise choice. You need portable fuel cells that make rotary power and today we have that in abundance - diesel engines.

There is no way batteries could be a viable option in my line of work. I'm usually the first on a site and clearing the way for electric to be brought in, eventually. This battery talk is nothing more than cozy, feel good talk for the greenies. My business runs on Liberal Tree Hugger tears and I love it! Few things better than the sound of screaming trees as they are pulled apart, fiber by fiber.

I just love the questions and comments by the green crowd. "That's a shame. That should be made into lumber or paper. What a waste." Ask them to pick up a chain saw and start the hand work, what a face they make. They want the power, the roads and all of the nice things that come from it but they don't want to make changes to allow it.

Commercial sites like mining or even light construction in the city, I can see battery power working in the future with some good success stories. For those of us working away from the grid, unless a magic solar charger comes about with 1 hour charge times that last over 10 work hours, not gonna happen. How heavy is 300+ hp of battery power for 12 hours anyways?

 

[John C.]

For those of us working away from the grid, unless a magic solar charger comes about with 1 hour charge times that last over 10 work hours, not gonna happen. How heavy is 300+ hp of battery power for 12 hours anyways?

Exactly!