1970 580ck Gets her name and surgery

[kshansen]

I'm sorry I don't have access to a complete service manual for this machine, but would expect that somewhere there is a specification for both converter and hydraulic stall speeds and maybe for full stall which would be converter stall and hydraulic stall at the same time. In other words get engine and transmission warmed up good then put front bucket up against a bank with transmission in high gear and give it full throttle and make note of the maximum rpm. That is your converter stall speed. Next with transmission in neutral roll bucket back against it stops and rev engine up to high idle and try rolling bucket back and make note of the max. RPM. That is hydraulic stall. Note probably should have said to confirm that main hyd. relief valve setting is in spec. first! Last, if they do give a spec. for it is full stall. That would be with bucket against the bank in high gear and full rpm then try rolling bucket back at the same time. This would give you full stall.

Note I could be off a little on exact procedure as I have never seen a Case book on these tests but I can only assume they would be about the same.

Also keep in mind that if your engine is not putting out full HP then the speeds would be slower than spec's and if for some reason something had been modified to get more horse power they could be higher than spec's. There may also be tests that can be done like Converter output pressure at full stall, but I would be taking a wild guess to have any idea of what they would be.

 

[Grady]

xpack, I don't know if you've seen this or if it helps but here is another similar situation from a different site:

I'm the proud owner of a 1974 Case 580 CK backhoe [power shuttle] She's old, she's ugly but she runs great.
Lately I've noticed that if I don't warm her up for at least 15-20 minutes, she won't move. The clutch doesn't engage until she's warm.

Is there any adjustment I can make so she would grab faster? Once she does grab, she's OK from then on.

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When trouble shooting any problem, start with the simple things first. Example: If an alternator is not charging, check the alternator drive belt first. Also, you are well advised to purchase a “Service Manual” from a Case Industrial dealer. While it is not cheap, the trouble shooting guides and illustrations make it worth every dollar.
There are two types of power shuttle drives used by Case for the 580, Twin Disc and Rockford. Trouble shooting both are basically the same.

With clean oil, filters, proper oil level, and clutches are NOT transmitting full power:

1) Lubrication valve stuck open a. contamination or wear in spool area causing hang up. b. regulating valve spring broken or improper tension. c. poor register between clutch hub and piston carrier.
2) Clutch dump valve stuck open a. contamination or wear in spool area causing hang up. b. regulating valve spring broken or improper tension.
3) Low oil pressure a. worn out or malfunctioning oil pump. (180 psi engagement) b. clutch pressure regulating valve out of adjustment (40 psi lubrication)
4) Piston outer sealing rings scored or wedged in piston grooves – oil contamination.
5) Oil pressure NOT being applied to the whole piston area – contamination in the oil transfer orifice holes between the primary and secondary clutch piston areas.
6) Opposing clutch NOT dis-engaging when shifting to the other – opposing dump valve and lubrication valve stuck closed.

The converter and lubrication oil regulator valve is located near the center of the torque tube cover and is held to the cover by two bolts. The converter oil temperature sensor is also located on that regulator valve. The valve spool is in that small casting behind a snap ring and retaining plug. The spool MUST move smoothly in the bore. The valve spring (uncompressed) should measure 1.375” and have 10-12 lbs. pressure at a .75” (compressed) height.

The clutch pressure regulator valve is located between the two spools on the control valve body. The regulator valve spool is behind a screw-in plug with shims to adjust the clutch pressure. The spool MUST move smoothly in the bore. The (uncompressed) length of the clutch pressure spring should be 2.04” and have 45 lbs. at 1.344” (compressed) height. The clutch pressure should be at or near 180 psi. There is an oil pressure test port (pipe plug) located on top of the control valve. Adding a .0209 shim will increase pressure by 5 psi. A .0418 shim will increase pressure by 10 psi. Likewise, the removal of a shim of each specific size will reduce pressure by the stated amount.

 

[1968 Case 580CK]

Grady....Thats some real great info. for Xpac to check out.......could be just a shim missing, or some of the other specific details mentioned.

 

[onemank6]

Xpack and kshan, I have read every thread on this forum that has a 580CK in it. I have found that these machines were known to be dogs from the day they were new. Any of the power shuttle machines were great for construction site work, but not for road travel, especially hills. They don't like going up hills. Complaint of operators since day one. Mine is the same way. Down hills fine, but crawls up them even in first gear.
In regard to seeing the shuttle while running. The shuttle will be spinning at the same RPM as the engine. So unless you have a plexiglass plate where the cover normally is, you will have a terrible hy trans mess on your hands.

Hey Flip does yours break the tires loose when your trying to get a good load of dirt in 1st???? ..... What mine is doing maybe normal but it just seems it should be better although it sounds like yours is about the same as mine .....

I do have some plexiglass and when it gets warmer outside i may give it a try just to know which one is alllowing it to slip if i could even see with the oil spinning up on the plexiglass..

thanks for the info about yours i have read a bunch on here about these to and your right about a lot of people said they are dogs when moving the hard part is knowing if you have a normal dog or is it worse than a normal dog ??????????

 

[onemank6]

Grady yea man i read that one ....and i will be honest i havent done all of the test on there yet but i am going to get into that when it warms up some ...On some of that list i did eliminate some things when i rebuilt it but not all of them ......Thanks for getting that in this thread it will come in handy.......

 

[thepumpguysc]

GRADY>> that right there my friend is worth its weight in gold..!!
X>> I was at my friends house the other day.. and his "helper" jumped-up on the tractor.. started it.. waited 5 seconds and drove it to us. WTH?
It was cold enough for me to have on my "long handles".. I've worked on that tractor for months{YEARS** since he brought it home..
Fluids, filters and brakes.. and its NEVER moved like that>>?? I don't know what gives.. maybe GREMLINS..??

 

[onemank6]

I'm sorry I don't have access to a complete service manual for this machine, but would expect that somewhere there is a specification for both converter and hydraulic stall speeds and maybe for full stall which would be converter stall and hydraulic stall at the same time. In other words get engine and transmission warmed up good then put front bucket up against a bank with transmission in high gear and give it full throttle and make note of the maximum rpm. That is your converter stall speed. Next with transmission in neutral roll bucket back against it stops and rev engine up to high idle and try rolling bucket back and make note of the max. RPM. That is hydraulic stall. Note probably should have said to confirm that main hyd. relief valve setting is in spec. first! Last, if they do give a spec. for it is full stall. That would be with bucket against the bank in high gear and full rpm then try rolling bucket back at the same time. This would give you full stall.

Note I could be off a little on exact procedure as I have never seen a Case book on these tests but I can only assume they would be about the same.

Also keep in mind that if your engine is not putting out full HP then the speeds would be slower than spec's and if for some reason something had been modified to get more horse power they could be higher than spec's. There may also be tests that can be done like Converter output pressure at full stall, but I would be taking a wild guess to have any idea of what they would be.

kshansen nothing to be sorry about i appreciate all you have done and i dug the service manual out the other day after reading your post that day and so far i havent seen a stall test for the converter and i maybe overlooking it ......My manual is not a original manual so its kinda hit and miss for good info it does show good hyd prints in color and i wish i knew more about how to read them so i had a better understanding of what was supposed to be happening exactly in that torque tube...

here are some pics from the manual and there is 2 test i want to do one of them is a test at the shuttle filter housing and the other is the torque converter relief valve i havent done them yet but i will be.....

Heres the print for the oil flow


heres a page of how it works

heres the checks i need to do



I dont know if this helps or not and right or wrong and i dont know if im right about this but so far what i see is the shuttle pump is supplying oil to the whole system and i think i see where this shuttle pump picks up the oil and it goes to the filter then goes to the cooler then threw the spools and to the converter and to the shuttle but after this is where i get lost heck i cant even say for sure exactly what the torque converter is doing the book says it multiplies engine torque but does it also act like a fluid coupling and will slip at a certain point .....therefore not turn the clutches although i dont fully get the shuttle either i know it has a piston pushing pressure against the clutches and i am reading 190 psi for the shuttle which the book says is good so to me the shuttle is getting what it needs to operate as it should......which leads me to believe its something with the torque converter i just need to learn more about exactly what the converter does......

 

[onemank6]

GRADY>> that right there my friend is worth its weight in gold..!!
X>> I was at my friends house the other day.. and his "helper" jumped-up on the tractor.. started it.. waited 5 seconds and drove it to us. WTH?
It was cold enough for me to have on my "long handles".. I've worked on that tractor for months{YEARS** since he brought it home..
Fluids, filters and brakes.. and its NEVER moved like that>>?? I don't know what gives.. maybe GREMLINS..??

pumpguy short of me checking this out after the rebuild and trying to see how she acts ......The normal for me in cold weather is raise the rear tire off the ground and throw it in high gear and let her get warmed up good before i try to move it...and before i rebuilt it on a cold day when i raised the rear tire and threw it in gear it wouldnt even attempt to turn the tire until it got good and warm but now it turns the tire right away and improves as it warms.....

I used to have to warm it in 80* weather or it just wouldnt move before the rebuild just not as long on the warm up as in the winter...I will see how it acts now when it hits 80* here...

 

[Juskatla]

pumpguysc, its probably got a case of the voodoo hoodoo from hearing about xpack's marie.... You know those women can be:Banghead

One of these days all these mysteries will be solved, and then what will we do for fun and entertainment?

 

[Grady]

xpack, I hear you. I'd be P/O if I had to go through that just to get the thing to move - esp. in warm weather. I'd look at everything you can do or check without having to split her again. After that….you know what you're in for. I noticed that nothing in that troubleshooting mentioned the torque converter. I don't know if that could be an issue or not but it doesn't seem like it would be affected by temperature alone- if it has the right oil. You're going to know a lot more about these power shuttles before long and I guess a lot more of us will too. Keep after it, with enough heads, we should be able to come up with something.

 

[onemank6]

Jusk if we ever figure out these moving issues we will probably find a kanutin valve thats held on by a wobble washer that controls the thinga ma bob so we will have plenty to keep us entertained with that one im sure......hahahahahaha

 

[fliptop10]

Hey Flip does yours break the tires loose when your trying to get a good load of dirt in 1st???? ..... What mine is doing maybe normal but it just seems it should be better although it sounds like yours is about the same as mine .....

I do have some plexiglass and when it gets warmer outside i may give it a try just to know which one is alllowing it to slip if i could even see with the oil spinning up on the plexiglass..

thanks for the info about yours i have read a bunch on here about these to and your right about a lot of people said they are dogs when moving the hard part is knowing if you have a normal dog or is it worse than a normal dog ??????????

Xpack,

I can break the tires loose in first and second while trying to load a pile of stone or loose dirt. Third and forth I cannot get that to happen. For short runs around my property or just to a neighbors house, third or fourth are great. As soon as I start up a hill, even a low grade, I start to loose ground speed while engine RPM does not change. I usually continue to travel until I cant stand it and stop and select a lower gear. I sometimes have to crawl up a hill in first gear. It takes FOREVER! I notice too that my trans temp increases greatly during these road journeys, but my converter hot light (which does function) doesn't come on. These transmissions really heat up quite a bit. I think that the heat in the fluid only makes the problem worse.
In terms of the mechanic shuttle, I can see where the problems we are having may be overcome. However, I would think that the ability to push into a fill pile, into snow, or into compost may be lost because the engine will be directly coupled to the driveline through the clutch. So you would have a greater chance of stalling or riding the clutch to do some of the things we can do with the torque converter.

I guess we give a litte and get a little. Later models of the shuttle perform much better at higher speeds. I know that from operating 1990's equipment with my father and having to do some road travel.

I think we both have dogs, I just think yours is now normal because of all the work you put into it. Mine is still just a worse than normal dog. Maybe its new name. Old dawg...lol

 

[Juskatla]

Jusk if we ever figure out these moving issues we will probably find a kanutin valve thats held on by a wobble washer that controls the thinga ma bob so we will have plenty to keep us entertained with that one im sure......hahahahahaha

xpack, I like kanutin valve, its like the remostat that was always causing trouble on our big computer systems in the early '70s... Nothing like a faulty remostat to cause a potential unscheduled opening of the kanutin valve and dump a load of wobble washers.

 

[onemank6]

Flip.....i dont think i could break my tires loose in 2nd like yours im hard pressed to break them loose in first......where do you have your trans temp gauge hooked up at i put a gauge in the pressure relief valve body for the torque converter where the hot light sensor was ....and do you know the average temp your tans temp runs ??????? When i worked mine moving the compost the water temp was 170 and the oil temp made it to about 130......

 

[onemank6]

xpack, I like kanutin valve, its like the remostat that was always causing trouble on our big computer systems in the early '70s... Nothing like a faulty remostat to cause a potential unscheduled opening of the kanutin valve and dump a load of wobble washers.

HA yea one of my favorites was the left hand crescent wrench hahahah

 

[1968 Case 580CK]

xpac.......The hillbillies of the mountains around here just get a 5 gallon bucket of sawdust from the old sawmill, then dump it into their slipping trannys to get them to work a bit longer. Maybe thats the answer to get the Voodoo Queen to claw a bit harder into the mud.

 

[onemank6]

xpac.......The hillbillies of the mountains around here just get a 5 gallon bucket of sawdust from the old sawmill, then dump it into their slipping trannys to get them to work a bit longer. Maybe thats the answer to get the Voodoo Queen to claw a bit harder into the mud.

68 now thats a good one hhahahhahahha Scary part is i know of some who would actually do something like that ...hey put a patent on that stuff and advertise it as the finest sawdust with the secret moonshine anti slip ingredients fresh from the virginia hills and sell for $19.95 a bucket .....If you build it they will come.......:jawdrop:jawdrop:falldownlaugh:falldownlaugh

 

[Grady]

HA yea one of my favorites was the left hand crescent wrench hahahah

How about a metric crescent?

 

[Grady]

from fliptop's post:

"In terms of the mechanic shuttle, I can see where the problems we are having may be overcome. However, I would think that the ability to push into a fill pile, into snow, or into compost may be lost because the engine will be directly coupled to the driveline through the clutch. So you would have a greater chance of stalling or riding the clutch to do some of the things we can do with the torque converter."

It's certainly possible to stall my CK with the mechanical shuttle if it were to come up against an immovable object like a large tree, some ledge, or even a pile of stone or fill if you just push into the bottom and don't curl or raise the bucket as it fills up but in first gear and low range - something my power shuttles don't have - that thing will just about crawl up a wall and has no trouble filling the bucket up without stalling. It's more likely to spin the tires - even with chains - and jump up and down. I replaced the clutch in it when I first got it over 30 years ago and I don't baby it. She still pulls the front wheels off the ground by accident so the clutch is still holding up. I really prefer the manual shuttle in the CK and I like he HI/LOW range that can be used in all gears. I have the power shuttles in the newer machines and I like the electric cut out switch on the loader handle and the brake pedals that acts as a clutch but I think those came later.

 

[kshansen]

How about a metric crescent?

I have at least one of those!


Also had a guy at work who could not understand when someone mentioned getting a new "cordless screwdriver" he would say "Heck, none of my have cords, what's the big deal?"