Right to Repair

[Nige]

99% of the farmers i know only know how to do basic repairs.

And generally the bulk of those "repairs" are made with baling wire and binder twine..........

 

[John C.]

The issue of what is being asked goes to the heart of all this controversy. I asked the question a long time ago and no one has answered it even yet. Can someone troubleshoot the machine from the monitor panel? Is there a display that will inform a mechanic of what the problem is. Basically is the machine set up like a construction machine. I don't know of any manufacturer that will give access to engine performance controls. On the other hand I do know that Deere and Hitachi service manuals actually stated to not inform the customer of access to diagnostics menus. So would someone finally inform us of the facts?

I've been to some farms in this state that have better shop facilities than any dealer I've worked for.

 

[Truck Shop]

On top of that to keep warranty on Q you want the warranty work done by dealer and
any up dates noted on repair forms. It keeps you out of trouble, plus makes for a better
trade-in or used sale, goes for any equipment. Everything has updates and should be
noted.

 

[Truck Shop]

I've been to some farms in this state that have better shop facilities than any dealer I've worked for.

That's true-but in some cases it's bragging rights and a place to hide. Typical work
done is welding repairs and LOF. Some are set up with break room Big Screen.

 

[crane operator]

The issue of what is being asked goes to the heart of all this controversy. I asked the question a long time ago and no one has answered it even yet. Can someone troubleshoot the machine from the monitor panel? Is there a display that will inform a mechanic of what the problem is. Basically is the machine set up like a construction machine. I don't know of any manufacturer that will give access to engine performance controls. On the other hand I do know that Deere and Hitachi service manuals actually stated to not inform the customer of access to diagnostics menus. So would someone finally inform us of the facts?

I've been to some farms in this state that have better shop facilities than any dealer I've worked for.

I'm guessing - which isn't what you're really looking for, sorry. I think its really limited what you can get at the monitor in the equipment. That's why deere is selling the program and the software access for the 4k and 2k a year. If it was all in the monitor- you wouldn't need that. And actually what deere is providing isn't what the right to repair guys (both farmers and independent repair shops) are wanting.

I think the farmer/ independent repair guys are wanting mandated OBDII type diagnostic with access , to be able to force a regen, to pull up codes and to reset fuel air etc (full access to everything). Deere would prefer they can do nothing (remember its like a 767). I think its going to end up somewhere in the middle of those two, probably closer to what deere wants.

Deere doesn't want the gov't on them if everyone is "deleting" all the emmisions controls on their equipment. EPA's smoke police and CARB really don't want anyone modifying things either. Farmers really don't care to much about the smoke police- all they want is to storm through at planting time and harvest time with no breakdowns.

The dealers can't afford to have the army of trained techs that it takes to keep this stuff running, for a month in the spring and two months in the fall. So when a farmers broke down in a millions of dollars time sensitive operation- they've got to wait a week for the tech to show up. And this week might be the one dry week for the next two weeks, and instead of planting corn, they're waiting on the one tech to show up- and praying the parts they need are available. I would want to throw all the baling wire and duct tape at that problem that I could if I was farming.

I can see where both sides are coming from in this one, and I have no idea where its going to end up.

 

[John C.]

Unfortunately guessing is all I've heard. I suppose I'm going to have to contact a farmer somewhere that has a current production machine to get the facts. What I see is a lot of people trying to spin the narrative to sway public opinion in their favor. All it is doing is making a lot of attorneys rich.

 

[terex herder]

I've had very few things go wrong with any of the late model equipment I have, but when it does the computer throws a code. The book will give a brief description of the code. The dealer has a better description of the code. The local store of a dealer conglomerate (deere wants to mimic Cat's model, one dealer per state) I can still talk to the service manager who is a good head, not just a writer. I understand some dealerships won't tell the customer any more than the time of day.

One of the possibilities deere doesn't like is many pieces of farm equipment have a top speed that is software limited. Maybe 5 years ago deere wanted about $15,000 to sell a 32 mph tractor over the 26 mph tractor. Everything is the same but the tires, and I sure didn't believe that cash was just for the upgrade. Same thing about power ratings. There may be a half dozen power ratings in a given frame size, but only a few different parts between the ratings. The $10,000 difference for the next larger tractor is pure profit for most upgrades.

 

[colson04]

I think a lot of the comments are overthinking this. To play devils advocate, i will look at this from a warranty aspect. Most of my neighbors who run new or relatively new iron are their own worst enemy. They buy the biggest machine of their favourite colour but always want to 'chip' everything. Trucks, pick-up trucks, combines, tractors, sprayers. Did i miss anything? Then have reliability issues and bitch that warranty doesn't want to cover the cost of repair. As long as the machine is on warranty, it should be 'hands off' unless its regular maintenance. Many years ago i had to deal with customers who did all sorts of crap and then wanted warranty to cover the cost of what they screwed up. 99% of the farmers i know only know how to do basic repairs. That's one reason why they trade regularly. Access to software beyond certain parameters is asking for trouble from a service point of view. Hey, after the warranty is off a machine or engine, who cares if they double the hp and grenade other components. That's their problem and they can factor that cost into their bottom line

Every used tractor we bought at auction, had the fuel pump played with. Grandpa bought a Deere 4440 with a cracked head. Had it repaired by local indepent shop. On run in, they found it pulling 175hp on a PTO dyno, should have been 135hp. Five years ago, he bought a Deere 8770 that smoked like a coal fire while pulling a 32ft cultivator and harrow. Took it to same shop, it pulled over 350hp on the dyno, stock setting is 300hp. Just a couple of examples. The 8770 was left as was and later traded off. Nobody like the dual stick transmission. The 4440 was turned down for longevity, but we out grew it and finally sold it off.

 

[Zewnten]

Claas gives farmers full access to anything if they're willing to pay. When I asked the shop about it they said it was great for business. They sell parts to farmers that don't diagnose and throw parts at it until they break the machine so much the farmers have to pay the shop to fix it right.

 

[Truck Shop]

At the price of a Claas. A hydraulic nightmare. Not something for the average joe to tinker with, there are
very few around here, with the track drive. Mainly deere, case ih.

 

[AzIron]

Deere tracks the data for themselves first easier way to set a ludicrous price is to know how much available money the market has before you make the machine and price

 

[mg2361]

That's why deere is selling the program and the software access for the 4k and 2k a year

I just looked it up. It looks like the cost for Service Advisor for customers is approx $1600 for the program, data sets (manuals) and the EDL to connect to the machine. The subscription is $195/month ($2340/yr).

I think the farmer/ independent repair guys are wanting mandated OBDII type diagnostic with access , to be able to force a regen, to pull up codes and to reset fuel air etc (full access to everything).

It includes the ability to do everything a dealer can do except program controllers. So forced regens, full diagnostics, readings, interactive tests like injector calibrations are all included. Just the reprogramming tile is left out. And we the Deere tech's can reprogram, but we never had access to any fuel mapping or anything to do with altering the software writing within the program. That comes from Deere in the software download that they control (as it should be).

An encrypted password comes to mind, with each dealer having their own password.

Actually, to reprogram a controller, every tech within every dealer group has to have their own ID#, their own password, and have to have their license to reprogram renewed every 3-4 months.

 

[crane operator]

Actually, to reprogram a controller, every tech within every dealer group has to have their own ID#, their own password, and have to have their license to reprogram renewed every 3-4 months.

Liebherr has a similar set up with the ID in the computer. They will do it over the phone, I sit in the cab, they have me input the #'s, and we reprogram what needs done. I kind of sweat putting in the numbers, but everything gets double checked before we run it.

I'm just glad liebherr will do the phone support, I'd hate to have to fly in the guys from houston or virginia or wherever the tech is. A $500 part turns into a $4,500 repair if you're flying in tech support. They would rather I put in the parts and they talk me through it on the phone.

I think with the newer stuff with bluetooth or data link, they can do the ID and reprogramming remotely. But I don't have anything that new.

 

[mg2361]

I think with the newer stuff with bluetooth or data link, they can do the ID and reprogramming remotely.

Yes, with Deere, we can reprogram controllers remotely (only if they have a current JDLink subscription). I often have mandatory product improvement programs that require just a software update. I do them from the comfort of the shop. There is operator involvement required, however. We will walk them through it over the phone if necessary. No codes for them to plug in because we as the licensed technician sent it.

 

[Flat Thunder Channel]

I think it's a cool idea to be able to diagnose your equipment without dragging it to the dealership or calling in a remote service technician. All the fancy electronics make these engines way more complicated than they need to be. It's too the point where I struggle and don't even try to understand new age electronic controls. What the heck is CAN communication on a single wire?

Guess I'm old school; fuel check, fuel shutoff operational check, compression check, make her spin and away she goes.

 

[Nige]

It includes the ability to do everything a dealer can do except program controllers.

So identical to a customer version of Cat ET then.?

 

[John C.]

So the farmers are lying about their machines being dead in the field and they can't be fixed without a Deere tech coming to the site?

 

[56wrench]

well, they may not be dead per se but de-rated so basically that makes the machine useless. adding to the problem is that some of the guys I know go absolutely ballistic when their combine breaks down and are not able to think constructively other than to rant at the dealer

 

[John C.]

Can the operator talk to the dealer who can use the telematics in the machine to tell the operator what is wrong?

 

[Truck Shop]

So identical to a customer version of Cat ET then.?

Detroit has the same basic tool.