You would be surprised what 27's will go threw with the right operators in the seats, we have ran dbls threw mud up to the door, and we have ran triples threw conditions worse then that! I dont know if you guys have ever heard of interstate 370 that runs threw illinois and missouri but most of that highway sits down in the mississippi river bottoms, and kolb built tht using 10 37's and 12 27's. And the whole thing was built with sand that was being dredge and pumped out of the mississippi river. It took a D8L pushing and a D9h with a hook on the back to get the 37's threw the cut and get them loaded, but the 27's would push pull right threw it.
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Why Are Auction Prices on TS14G's Much Lower Than 627G's
- Thread starter Abscraperguy
- Start date
So you ran them through mud about 3 feet higher then the belly pans. That would leave you with about a foot of tire sticking out of the mud. Belly pans riding on mud equals flotation, flotation equals loss of traction........tell us another one......your nose is growing....AGAIN.
Aussie Leroy
Senior Member
Horsepower to the pound, Cat 627G 145 Ib per HP. TS14G 183 Ib per HP. thats of the current spec sheets. so the cat has 20% more power, but is the fuel useage only 20% more ???
Showpony
Well-Known Member
If I was doing what vapor described i would make sure the mud was pumped onto a basin with a hard flat base that way machinery could push pull through some really deep muck, as long as the muck was reasonably fluid, flotation would not be an issue, just traction.
The big fun would be in the fill, what did they do there vapour?
Hahaha, yeah, but if the mud was that fluid, you might as well pump it....LOL. That also puts the mud almost half way up the grill.....1/3 anyhow. So, how did you keep the rads from plugging right up? Didn't you have issues with the trannies overheating as well? they would be completely submerged and caked solid.
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Alco im pretty sure we have talked before and come to find out you are a mechanic that has spent zero or very few time on a scraper, im sure you are trying to work on your 1000 loads per one D10!!! And we would pull into are cut and the mud would go up to the door, and the front push block and belly pans were dragging threw mud. So you all are saying you have never seen scrapers in mud deeper then the belly pan??? We would get a load of dirt a waller threw mud belly pan deep.
Here's a queston have any of you ever ran a trackhoe threw mud before??? And when you went threw it was the mud deeper then the belly pan??? I think you need to think about this a little bit more!!! LOL Ive seen dozers go threw mud 4 foot deep, but according to your guys theory there is no way they would of been able to get threw it since there belly pans are only 3 feet off the ground, it must of been magic!!!
One more time in case you DIDNT GET IT!!! Just because the belly pan of the tractor is dragging threw mud, doesnt mean that that you are not getting traction, but then again if you have never been around mud you dont know.
How many loads you get today alco 2000??? LOL
Here's a queston have any of you ever ran a trackhoe threw mud before??? And when you went threw it was the mud deeper then the belly pan??? I think you need to think about this a little bit more!!! LOL Ive seen dozers go threw mud 4 foot deep, but according to your guys theory there is no way they would of been able to get threw it since there belly pans are only 3 feet off the ground, it must of been magic!!!
One more time in case you DIDNT GET IT!!! Just because the belly pan of the tractor is dragging threw mud, doesnt mean that that you are not getting traction, but then again if you have never been around mud you dont know.
How many loads you get today alco 2000??? LOL
It's amazing how someone with so little knowledge of someone else can judge them....isn't it? I guarantee I've been around, and moved far more dirt and mud than you have.....fact. Have fun in your own little world.....too bad there is no reality there. Oh, and when you try and come back at someone, try and get your facts straight.
My facts are straight, you even said that you have no time on a scraper before, you have just worked on them, and now you work in a mine, so you have no clue what its like to move dirt with scrapers! After are little debate on how many loads a D10 and scrapers can get in a 10 hr day, i had 3-4 guys send me private messages saying you didnt have the slightest clue, and said they have been on big dirt jobs before and never even heard of 1000 loads a day out of 1 D10!!! So go ahead and think what ever you want, im moving this type of dirt everyday, with 15 631's 4 627's and 10 john deeres, are you working around the type of equipment we are talking about??? NO! And i have spent 5 years on a 27 and have ran 31's and 51's before, so i know what they can and cant do. And it sounds like you dont. But i will give you one thing, you are proably a much better mechanic then me!
Showpony
Well-Known Member
Alco, How about a big shroud on the front of the front radiator right behind the bail, and side covers on the rear engines, where I come from we run with our belly guards on, so most of the mud is going to stay out of the engine bays as long as you keep moving forward. There would be problems as you describe but if the jobs got to be done you run what you brung. The most sucsessful people in earthmoving always find a way around problems, Im here to learn from them.
enough with the negativity and defeatism.
I don't believe I ever said I had no time on a scraper before. I do have time, but I chose not to run them whenever possible since I just plain didn't like it. I spent 5 years working with a scraper spread, running buggy, pushcat, grader, finish dozer, hoe, truck, and other machines as well as fixing them. So, as you can see, you DO NOT have your facts straight....as usual.
Once again, you have the facts of the whole conversation wrong. I was talking about a spread with a D11, not a D10 in a 12 hour day, not a 10 hour day pushing 6 651Es in a short, very steep downhill cut. The buggies were loaded and moving within 50 feet, the cat hardly had to move except to backup and grab another buggy that was planted beside him. As to any PMs you may have received.....they don't matter to me in the least. You also had several people post in the open that you didn't know as much as you thought.
Once again, am I working around that equipment now? No, I'm not, I chose a nice cushy job where I make tons of money, work half the year, and am home every night. But that doesn't negate the fact that I spent 5 years chasing a scraper spread both running iron and fixing it. I know what scrapers can do, and I know a few things people argue tooth and nail about that they say won't work, that worked very nicely for us.
Now, you say you'd pull into a cut and would be up to the door in mud, but the pushblock would only be dragging. Fact of the matter is, the pushblock is a fair bit lower than the bottom of the door, it would be buried, not dragging. As for belly pans not floating a machine, sorry bud, but it's like putting on skis. The belly pans slide over the top of the mud as they get pushed down into it, this causes the machines to lift a bit, which lessens the traction achieved by the tires. I've seen buggies in mud that wasn't even up to the bumper, that had to be pulled out because of this effect....which is simple physics by the way. Wallowing through mud belly pan deep is about 3 feet less than having it up to the door....bit of a difference there.
I've spent time in mud that you wouldn't even begin to understand with a dozer and a hoe. Ever worked in a tailings pond? It's a whole different ballgame on tracks than it is on tires in the mud....think about that, but don't hurt yourself.
Guards to deflect the mud would help I would imagine, but it's still going to come down to traction. I agree with the run what you brung statement, that's what we always did. But I won't stand by and watch someone post such ridiculous comments when they are so obviously not based in reality. I'll keep calling them as I see them.
Abscraperguy
Senior Member
In my country we put big scoops on our buggies so the mud goes THROUGH the rad. It cools so much better than just air. But if the mud is deep enough enough we prefer to pump it through the engine instead of water with some special mud pumps. Our engines run cooler so we can get twice as many hours out of them now. As long as the mud is below the beacon on the top of the cab we'll keep going. It is imperative to be able to see the beacon at all times. That way if the beacon stops moving the foreman know its time to send a canoe out.
Now seriously I have hauled slop that should have been pumped. It was the stuff at the bottom of a pulp and paper mill lagoon. A drop of that stuff on bare skin burned pretty bad. It was commonly known as loon sh-t.
Showpony
Well-Known Member
Alco, Vapour wrote he was winching 37s with a tractor and triple running 27s eg, one in and two out of the mire, traction problem solved all round.
Try standing by and reading what people are writing before you jump their bones, then you can call it how it is, not as you see it.
What is it with Cat scrapers every bodys like a long tail cat in room full of rockin chairs, runnin too hard, too much financial stress??!! I think I'll go with the 14, slower, cheaper, less reiable (more time to fish), and easy to fix.
Off the subject a bit, Liquifaction pushed up by the Christchurch earthquake here on Feb22. Silt, sand and water out of broken sewers, I'm SO greatfull it wasnt up to the belly guards. This stuff is nasty, stinking, wet an running all over the place one day, next day still stinking, but hard as a goats knee, you couldnt leave it in a truck body for more than an hour otherwise it had to be dug out. We handled it alll with a road trucks, wheel loader and wheeled excavator, no place for a scraper especially an elevator with worn out chains.
Abscraper you usin LED beacons? Those course fin rads work a treat dont they. What do you do when it hits the fan?? If your engine got hot you may have a problem with clay liners!! They recon an air filter doesnt work right until its more than 50% full!!
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Abscraperguy
Senior Member
You're right I need to install mud sensors on those fan blades I guess. That way they know when they can take a "breather" and let the mud work for em. As far as an engine getting hot it wouldn't if it was buried in mud. Are you ever hot buried in a barrel of ice cream?
Showpony
Well-Known Member
Scrapers in ice cream Now youre talkin.
Can you show me where he said that? Because that's not what he said. I read what people say before I post on it, and what he said was:
I fully believe the 37 story with push and pull cats, but two 27s push pulling through mud up to the door is a fantasy. Now, triple running through a short mud hole is possible, but that's not what he' described, so I stand by my assessment. I've been there to recover 27s out of short mud holes that weren't that deep when they tried to push pull through them, and I know it doesn't work.
Showpony
Well-Known Member
Vapour 300 Posted this @ 06.21.2011 1134pm
You would be surprised what 27's will go threw with the right operators in the seats, we have ran dbls threw mud up to the door, and we have ran triples threw conditions worse then that! I dont know if you guys have ever heard of interstate 370 that runs threw illinois and missouri but most of that highway sits down in the mississippi river bottoms, and kolb built tht using 10 37's and 12 27's. And the whole thing was built with sand that was being dredge and pumped out of the mississippi river. It took a D8L pushing and a D9h with a hook on the back to get the 37's threw the cut and get them loaded, but the 27's would push pull right threw it.
I take he has had 27 up the doors doubling but in the 370 job he tripled them. I may be mistaken about the 37s being winched by the 9 , but down under if a tractor has a hook on the back the hook is usually on the end of a winch rope.
either way with an 8 behind he will need to keep his beacon going so the canoes can see when they stop for icecream.
This is all getting too trivial im going to cool down in the mud with Abscraper.
Anyone that has ran 27's before knew excatly what i was talking about (showpony) The lead scraper would pull down threw the mud and get stuck, then the back scraper would come in right behind him and push him out and up on higher dryer ground, and the back scraper would tightin up the bail and start cuttting, loading the rear scraper first, down in the mud, (that was up to the door) you have proably never even seen that done ALCO.
When you dig a lake you start in one corner and you dig it to grade so the water has somewhere to drain, then you start working your way to the other side cutting grade as you go, its a lil tougher to load since your always going up hill but thats what we had to do since all we had was 27's. So we dug one corner to grade and water started coming in on us, so we started loading the back scraper first, then after he took a cut out of the mud the front scraper would load up on the high side. You understand yet ALCO, or you need a pic???
When you dig a lake you start in one corner and you dig it to grade so the water has somewhere to drain, then you start working your way to the other side cutting grade as you go, its a lil tougher to load since your always going up hill but thats what we had to do since all we had was 27's. So we dug one corner to grade and water started coming in on us, so we started loading the back scraper first, then after he took a cut out of the mud the front scraper would load up on the high side. You understand yet ALCO, or you need a pic???