Whats good to operate?

[nextdoor]

I was just wondering what peoples favourite dozer was to operate (new and old). Mine would be maybe not the best dozer in the world but I sure liked to operate it. It was an AD12 Fiat and it didnt seem to matter what the job was, it just was easy and always come up a treat. Even Tony wasnt too badly behaved most days! Mind you I still enjoy getting out of the aircon cabs once in a while but alas not on Tony as she was sold off. However I still have the D47U but she is quite a hand full compared to the AD12. I still very much enjoy the high tracks but I just clicked with the Fiat on the first day and I wondered if anyone else has had this experience with a particular machine. Cheers.

 

[Aussie Nick]

Personally the 943 Cat drott was my favourite. It was not as powerful as the D11 and weighed a hell of a lot less ..... but ..... it walzed and danced like a ballerina. The D11 is good but can be scary to operate at times.

 

[RollOver Pete]

For me, a Cat D9H or a D9L wins the top spot.
The D9H being big, lethargic, with absolutely no visibility out the front or rear.
The D9L having a shorter u/c and weighing slightly less than a D10N still put down more ground psi.
Even with less HP, I could easily take an L equipped with a single shank and out rip 10N's and R's and not have to beat myself to death doing it.
For me, both are still the easiest machines as far as being able to "feel" your work.
Many times, being able to feel the machine react to your commands is just as, if not more important than being able to see it react.
With no cab, no rattling doors, no plastic, no fancy electronics, no frills, bells or whistles.
The D9H and D9L were direct and to the point.
They responded to the operators controls without any of todays electronic enhancers, fine tuners and operator settings.
Skill was required to run the older machines.
Dont get me wrong.
It still takes a skilled operator to figure out how to set up and fine tune the hydraulic reaction time, blade and ripper position memory position thingy, auto shift, climate control and lumbar support settings. :stirthepot
I just dont understand why the tractor needs to remember where to position the rippers or how fast to drop the blade :beatsme
Seriously, remembering to position my rippers for me?:idontgetit
Will I forget or am I just too damned busy?
And the bade/hydraulic/ reaction/speed/fine grade setting.
A skilled operator does this by grabbing the hydraulic controls with his right hand and working the decelerator with his right foot.:stirthepot
I guess in a way todays fancy electronics (auto bubble) make up for the skill that was once required to get the same job done.:my2c

 

[CAT D9H]

The D8K and D9H with semi U blades, absolutly love them

 

[JimBruce42]

For me, a Cat D9H or a D9L wins the top spot.
The D9H being big, lethargic, with absolutely no visibility out the front or rear.
The D9L having a shorter u/c and weighing slightly less than a D10N still put down more ground psi.
Even with less HP, I could easily take an L equipped with a single shank and out rip 10N's and R's and not have to beat myself to death doing it.
For me, both are still the easiest machines as far as being able to "feel" your work.
Many times, being able to feel the machine react to your commands is just as, if not more important than being able to see it react.
With no cab, no rattling doors, no plastic, no fancy electronics, no frills, bells or whistles.
The D9H and D9L were direct and to the point.
They responded to the operators controls without any of todays electronic enhancers, fine tuners and operator settings.
Skill was required to run the older machines.
Dont get me wrong.
It still takes a skilled operator to figure out how to set up and fine tune the hydraulic reaction time, blade and ripper position memory position thingy, auto shift, climate control and lumbar support settings. :stirthepot
I just dont understand why the tractor needs to remember where to position the rippers or how fast to drop the blade :beatsme
Seriously, remembering to position my rippers for me?:idontgetit
Will I forget or am I just too damned busy?
And the bade/hydraulic/ reaction/speed/fine grade setting.
A skilled operator does this by grabbing the hydraulic controls with his right hand and working the decelerator with his right foot.:stirthepot
I guess in a way todays fancy electronics (auto bubble) make up for the skill that was once required to get the same job done.:my2c

:iagree

While I'm a fan of comfort, I think you're on to something with the auto-control flow setting thingies. Sounds like catering to "operators" who think running a dozer in 3rd gets more done when your dozing:beatsme I'm awful at dozer, but even I think that some of the "bells and whistles" are taking all the fun of being a good operator out of it.:my2c

:notworthy

 

[AtlasRob]

ROP :notworthy :lmao I've never operated bigger than a D8k but I can understand exactly where your coming from.

 

[Rockbreaker]

I have a close race between a D7G LGP and a D10R

Ran the D7G for the summer of 89 and i loved every day..
Lots of work,sunshine and a great dozer to operate..
You could not see the blade on that dozer eigther but you learned to take it on the feeling nd i do belive i became a better operater that summer

The D10R is more on the power and comfort thing..
It amazed me every day how much that machine produced every day and no problems what so ever:notworthy:notworthy

Also think the new D8T is a great machine on comfort but i was going crazy over all the electrical features on it:dizzy:umno:wierd

 

[t3chw00di]

I just dont understand why the tractor needs to remember where to position the rippers or how fast to drop the blade :beatsme

It's just a personal thing for when more than one operator run the same machine. Each operator has their own style and runs the machine a little differently. I personally like the hydraulic controls faster and more sensitive than a lot of cat guys. Got that way from running JD 750's for a few years and their hydraulic's were always faster than cat's. So I set it the way I want and store it under my profile. Just makes it easier on everyone if they can store/recall their own profile

As for the topic of the post, I loved running 750C and 750J for the most part but since they are a little rougher riding than cats and a tad bit tinny, I'm glad I'm now running a D6T with Trimble GPS. Gotta love t3chnology :drinkup

Dennis

 

[Deas Plant]

Running on memory

Hi, t3chw00di.
Without wishing to belittle you, maybe you ought to go back and re-read ROP's post:

Quote:
"A skilled operator does this by grabbing the hydraulic controls with his right hand and working the decelerator with his right foot." Unquote.

It may all be very nice for the people who CAN'T or WON'T get their heads around the real skills of operating but it is also just more electronic crap to go wrong and give trouble - more downtime.

I'm only a beginner and still very defintiely in my learning phase after only 40-odd years of operating all manner of machines and I only had 3 years of high school but even I've figured out that I can position my own ripper and blade where I want them at any given time.

I really would love to see some of the newer operators get on a 2U D8 or 3T D7 with manual clutch and transmission, separate clutch and brake steering and a cable angle blade with a bit of slack in it and do what the oldtimers, me included, did with them. That might just show where the REAL skills are or were. F'rinstance, how do you think you would go grading a trotting (harness racing) track for horses with the machines I've just described above?

Or would you like to try it with a D9G or D9H where the closest point to the ground that you could see on the back of the blade from your normal sitting position was 10" - yes, TEN INCHES - above the ground.

I once took a Cat D9G bobtailed dozer with a hydraulic angle blade up an eight foot high vertical wall on night shift - I would have loved to have seen the day shift operator's face the next day when he saw the tracks leading straight up that wall. Could you do that with a JD 750 or a D6T? I doubt you could do it with a D10R or T.

Please understand that I'm not trying to belittle you or anybody else here. I'm only trying to point out where the real skills were and are and they are not with how you set all the electronic crap in whatever sparkling new piece of wired wizardry you might be sitting on these days. I'm also trying to show that, even with all the electronic gizmos, today's machines just won't do some of the things that the older machines could do.

Nextdoor. I spent about 3 months on an AD12 angle blade dozer way back when they were new and it was a good dozer in many ways. That Fiat engine coudl sure lug down and still push. My only real gripe about was what Fiat called their powershift transmission back in theose days. It was basically a hydraulically controlled direct drive with no torque converter where you moved the lever and the transmission did all the rest hydraulically. It had NO delicate feel for loading on floats and such like. It was either 'clunk - in' or 'clunk - out'. Heck, it even had a little red TV window in the dash to tell you when it was changing gears - the first electronic crap?

After all that, my favourite dozer would still be a toss-up between the D8H-K and the D9G-H with the D9's being just slightly ahead, I think.

Just my learner's 0.02.

 

[OCR]

I once took a Cat D9G bobtailed dozer with a hydraulic angle blade up an eight foot high vertical wall on night shift - I would have loved to have seen the day shift operator's face the next day when he saw the tracks leading straight up that wall. Could you do that with a JD 750?

Deas my friend,

Yes I can do that... although, I would probably have to use my ripper to help.

I'll explain... with a parallelogram (or any) ripper, as you let it down, it fallows
an outward arc till mid-point... If I'm going up a real steep hill, with a cut bank at the top... I just keep going till my dozer starts to spin out and usually
my tracks have gone up the cut bank a little ways too. I'm rather steep by then and my ripper is pretty low to the dirt, even in the raised position.

I then start lowering the ripper... keeping just enough power on to barely spin
the tracks... since the ripper is extending, and teeth are in the ground... this
gives me a little push. This also raises the back of dozer up, and I spin a little
dirt to the back, which makes me more level when I raise the ripper. I'm usually on my way then.

I can use this method to climb longer steep hills too, but it's time consuming
and eventually the track ruts get too deep.

I can also tilt and angle my blade... and carefully push both steel and wood fence posts out of the ground with out bending or breaking them... I use a corner bit... dig it in just before post... and use dec. pedal and blade lift...
Of course, I have to see the bit... but it does work if you're carefully.

I know the ripper method is old hat to some here... but I've sure surprised a lot of dozer bosses, on fires...... same with fence posts...

The hydrostatic drive, with the ability to counter rotate your tracks...
plus the 6 way blade can get you in... and out... of some pretty
bad places... helps to have a ripper and winch too...

This would apply to many equipment makes now, but at the time, when we got ours, JD was pretty well prov-en in the hystat drive.


OCR


(is this my longest post ever?)

 

[Deas Plant]

Think about it.

Hi, OCR.
Careful, Buddy. You are getting to be as long-winded as me. LOL.

Think about it. I wasn't talking about a steep hill with a cut bank at the top. I was talking about an eight foot high vertical WALL - with NO entry slope at the bottom, just straight up. The early hinged rippers and the first paralellogram rippers with no pitch adjustment would have only hung me up, not to mention the additional weight on the rear that would have had to be overcome to get the nose down again at the top of the wall.

The later 4BBL paralellogram rippers may have been a help - or a hindrance. Sure, you can tuck the tip of the shank almost right in under the back of the tractor and then use it to push yourself up the wall but you still have that extra weight on the back of the machine to overcome at the point of balance.

I have opened mechanical tailgate latches on ordinary road-registered tipper trucks with both dozer corner tips and loder bucket teeth - without damage. Depends on the style of tailgate latch. I have also lifted posts out of the ground with corner tips and with 4-in-1 buckets, even unto steel fence posts without damaging them. It's just knowing your machine and the ground being co-operative. Those 4-in-1 buckets are VERY handy tools. So are dozer blades when you know how to use them. It seems you may have a clue or two.

 

[t3chw00di]

Hi Deas Plant
Please don't misunderstand my post. I was not trying to belittle or take anything away from anyone either. I have nothing but respect for any operator who can cut grade by the seat of their pants, no matter what they are running.

It may all be very nice for the people who CAN'T or WON'T get their heads around the real skills of operating but it is also just more electronic crap to go wrong and give trouble - more downtime.

You may be very right. It might turn out to be crap over time and create downtime. But until it does, I consider it a convenience

I really would love to see some of the newer operators get on a 2U D8 or 3T D7 with manual clutch and transmission, separate clutch and brake steering and a cable angle blade with a bit of slack in it and do what the oldtimers, me included, did with them. That might just show where the REAL skills are or were. F'rinstance, how do you think you would go grading a trotting (harness racing) track for horses with the machines I've just described above?

Or would you like to try it with a D9G or D9H where the closest point to the ground that you could see on the back of the blade from your normal sitting position was 10" - yes, TEN INCHES - above the ground.

Luckily I never had to run a 2U D8 or a 3T D7. I heard that you had to brace yourself with your feet to be able to pull the steering clutch on a 2U. I started off on a 17A D7, but never had to cut grade with it. Mostly brushing and stripping a few lots. Then moved to 14A D8's. Boss had 3 of them all with different shift patterns. Only 1 of them had a dozer which was cable. It was the only one with a hard nose, and I rarely ran it. I know full well from experience on it what a little slack in the cable will get you though. :Banghead
I got more into the others pulling cable scrapers (or pans as some of you call them).
I did run a D9H for a while pushing 631's and cleaning up behind them whenever I had a chance. This was cutting street and lot grade in a new subdivision. I know what you mean by the 10" site above ground level. She was all by feel

I once took a Cat D9G bobtailed dozer with a hydraulic angle blade up an eight foot high vertical wall on night shift - I would have loved to have seen the day shift operator's face the next day when he saw the tracks leading straight up that wall. Could you do that with a JD 750 or a D6T? I doubt you could do it with a D10R or T.

I would love to have seen that. I doubt you could do it with a D10R or T either, since I've never seen one that is bareback. Even if it had no ripper, it's pretty doubtfull, since most big highdrives seem to be heavy on the ass end. I don't think you could get the center of gravity far enough forward.

Please understand that I'm not trying to belittle you or anybody else here. I'm only trying to point out where the real skills were and are and they are not with how you set all the electronic crap in whatever sparkling new piece of wired wizardry you might be sitting on these days. I'm also trying to show that, even with all the electronic gizmos, today's machines just won't do some of the things that the older machines could do.

I don't think the "electronic crap" (as you put it) should take away or make any difference in the operators skills. Just because I can set the controls to react differently according to my own preferences means nothing. Being able to click a single button to lift and stow the ripper in whatever position you choose is meant to give you a few extra seconds to think about something else rather than have to hold the control manually. It's just a convenience. You still have to be able to 'feel' the machine and use your 'bubble', and I don't consider the added convenience to take anything away from that. I still decelerate and ease into my cuts the same as I've always done. None of that has changed and I doubt it will in the future. I do that with the GPS on auto mode with the D6T also although maybe not quite as slowly, depending on the material I'm in. Even though we have all this new technology to help and guide us, an operator still has to know how to move the dirt from point A to point B. He still has to know how to work the dirt to get it to compact. I truly believe that the new gadgets should not take anything away from a skilled operator, but only enhance his ability to do the job quicker and easier.
You are right that today's machines won't do some things that the older machines could do.

After all that, my favourite dozer would still be a toss-up between the D8H-K and the D9G-H with the D9's being just slightly ahead, I think.

Just my learner's 0.02.

The D8H-K and the D9G-H were great machines, and they built much of the infrastructure in the civilized world. I put my time in on open air machines, tarped in so most of you is cooking but your face still freezing. Eyes sore because of the dust, and ears ringing even though I wore ear plugs. I'm sorry but I'm past that stage in my life and I don't wanna look back. I have always looked toward the future and I love technology. I'm a sci-fi fan (trekkie) and would love to be in space, although I'm sure it won't happen in my lifetime.
May we never stop learning
Cheers from Canada :drinkup
Dennis

 

[ozscooper]

The D11 is good but can be scary to operate at times.

really, scary is the last thing i would called an 11

 

[OCR]

Think about it.

I have opened mechanical tailgate latches on ordinary road-registered tipper trucks with both dozer corner tips and loder bucket teeth - without damage. Depends on the style of tailgate latch. I have also lifted posts out of the ground with corner tips and with 4-in-1 buckets, even unto steel fence posts without damaging them.

Sounds like neither of use likes to get out of the seat that much either...

On a serious note though... I think, by being able to do some of the above
things, takes practice... and by the same token... usually results in being a
better operator.


And don't disagree with me... or I'll insist on a BOD meeting.....:lmao


OCR

 

[Deas Plant]

Argument?????????????

Hi, OCR.
What's to argue about. You're right - - - - - this time. LOL.

 

[nextdoor]

Gee Deas you must of had a modern AD12 with the electronic gear indicator, mine had no such "luxuries"! As for the trans with no torque converter, yeah it was a pain, particularly when you were loading it on a float, but boy could the little bugger rip. From memory they were 120hp and we had a large Standen ripper (D7 size) and it would hold its own against a D7 of the same vintage. Probably my biggest winge was the slow reverse unless you stopped and chaged range. Anyway thanks to everyone for the replies, they are interesting to know and maybe a pattern will emerge.

 

[Deas Plant]

'modern' Ad12????????????????????????????

Hi, Nextdoor.
'Modern' AD12?????????????? We're talking 1967 here. LOL.

You're right about that ripper. The one I ran had a Standen ripper on it too, with long, curved shanks. In one dam that I put in, it would sink the picks in almost full depth and couldn't pull them so we put a stick-shift D6C up its backside. That got things loosened up in a hurry - comparatively speaking.

I never got my butt on another Fiat dozer until 1978 when I ran a Fiat BD14 for about 3 months. It too was a good machine, just not good enough to rip the shale that we encountered on that site. We ended up with a Cat D9G with a single shank 4BBL ripper to get it out. No wonder the poor little BD14 couldn't handle it.

 

[mattellis2]

? about old international dozer

hello there. i am new to the heavy equipment world, but have always liked large machines. sadly the only thing i have any seat time in is an old jd 455 crawler/loader. we'll have to work on that in the future.

anyway, fellow one another forum i frequent has an old international dozer for sale that is currently not running. says he had it running about 1-1.5 years ago, but has not been cranked since then. attached is a picture.

can anyone give me any more information? according to the fellow, it is a TD25 and weighs around 45K. any idea how much it may be worth, scrap or otherwise. i really have no use for a machine that big, but could have some fun, clean up a little bit of acreage, and then resell it.

-matt

 

[mattellis2]

crap, i am evidently an idiot, and can't edit the post or put it where it belongs.

sorry!

-matt

 

[fiat41b]

My Fiat 41b Is Very Friendly To Operate I Have Not Used It Recently But Im Going To Bid A Job This Thursday That Has 100,000 Yds Building A Waste Water Treatment Plant I Would Like To Know From Others What Seems To Be The Going Price For Moving Clay Earth Now A Days This Project Has 2 Lagoons Tied Together Covering 12 Acres In Impoundments 17' High Berms 10' Top 3 To 1 Slopes 95% Compaction With A 2 Ft Clay Liner At 95% One Cell Is Long But Only 160' Across Side To Side That Would Be An 80' Push To The Inside Toe Of The Slope Of The Berm The Other Cell Is 630' Long By 350' Across Just Seems Like I Could Use Dozers On This One With A 825 Compactor And Disc Tractor My Other Tractors Have Trimble Gps D6rlgp And D8kp Does Any One Have Any Thoughts Thanks