What "big 3" won't be around in 2009

[CM1995]

Higher taxes usually mean lower tax revenue, because higher taxes restrict business, thus less business is being done. Even though the taxes are higher, less tax is being collected.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081123/pl_nm/us_usa_obama_taxes :cool2

 

[Eagle Spirit]

I think they need to reorganize just like a lot of other companys need to do. But the government should say bring up your products to be competitive and the government needs to make it so cars from other countrys can not be brought it so cheap.

 

[jmac]

With all the bad news coming from every direction, it just takes the wind out of my sails. I try to ignore it and just keep plugging away, what about all us little guys? I started full tilt about 3 years ago, can't have a slow down now. All the bad news about all the big industry is one thing but don't forget about the little people, all the small companies that made the US what it is, it just pisses me off.

 

[Reuben]

I think charges should be brought against the oils co's. They made more money then any U.S. company EVER!!! As a direct result of that, the rest of the country was shot into the ground. Maybe "Economic Fraud" charges.

 

[GOINGBROKE]

was doing a quick service in the field. Rather than load the oil barrel up I ran by the local parts store and picked up some Rotella 15w40 in the gallons got out to the truck and looked at the bill only $14.99 a gallon suppose it will take years before everything gets back in line with oil being under $50 a barrel. Think I'll take the time to load the oil next time.

 

[dayexco]

let's just hope we don't have a banner year with high profits and the rest of the country doesn't want to bring charges against us.

 

[swampdog]

Maybe some Americans don't realize it, but these issues extend beyond the borders of the U.S.A. The economies of Canada, USA, and Mexico are very closely tied, and what happens in one country affects the others. We have long had agreements like the Auto Pact and NAFTA. How many millions of Americans are driving so-called "American" cars that are made in Canada or Mexico. It's a continental market and a continental problem.

The big three auto makers are also lined up begging the Canadian government for money. It's been in the news up here every day. And I wouldn't be surprised if they try to get money from Mexico City and European governments.

That said, I drive GMs and Fords. IMO, Japanese and European cars are highly overrated. I recently sold my Toyota 4x4 pickup and bought a 6L 3/4 ton GMC 4x4. The fuel mileage with the GMC is about the same as with the Toyota. And the load carrying capacity and parts availability are much better. Similarly, our main car is a late model V8 Ford product. The fuel mileage with it is about the same as Honda Accords that we had in the past. And it has great reliability.

I would like to see the Big Three survive, but I can't see how they can compete if they can't do something about the $70 plus per hour cost that they have to pay for unskilled employees. And management has to stop flying around in those jets and reduce their take as well.

 

[XL4300X]

Let them go under, no one bailed out Modern Continental, one of the biggest construction companies in the country at one time, when they mismanaged their money.

 

[humboldt deere]

I looked up modern construction, it looks like their still around, but going through bankruptcy court. They are pretty well diversified.

 

[jmanfitter]

it is bad all over, not looking good.

 

[XL4300X]

Modern is gone, the bonding companies have taken over the whole company and are just finishing up all their contracts which are pretty much all done.

 

[EddieWalker]

One of the biggest arguments for the bailout or loan, whichever you want to call it, is to save the retirees. My understanding, and I was in the Teamsters for 13 years and a shop steward for 8 years, is that the money for the pensions is administered by a seperate entity. The unions and the company has nothing to do with the pension. If the Big 3 disapeared, who manages their pensions and how would those who are retired be affected?

The thing about the unions and the Big 3 that really kills me is that they pay people to not work. If you get laid off, you still get paid 80% of your working pay. If a job becomes available for you at another location, you can decline that work and conitue to receive unemployment from the company.

I appreciate what the union does for protecting employees from abusive management, and how they have increased the standard of living for thier members, but there is also an unwritten rule that you don't rat each other out and you NEVER make another member look bad by doing more then they are. The DUDS set the pace and the more seniority that you have, the less you do. The company knows this, the unions know this and they all either pretend it's not going on, or that it's beyond their ablity to control.

The bailout will only make it worse and that much more painful when the next time. It's only a matter of time until it happens again, and it will be that much worse when that day arrives. Cancer needs to be removed, not fed. They are feeding the cancer and it's only going to get worse.

Eddie

 

[swampdog]

First of all, I don't own any Japanese or European vehicles, other than an old VW. In my opinion, GM and Ford (maybe Chrysler too ) build excellent vehicles that are not adequately appreciated by those who insist on buying imports. I'll take a GMC or Ford 3/4 ton any day over a Toyota Tundra.

But I have doubts about the bail out. It sounds as if the Big 3 want about 6 or 7 billion from the Canadian taxpayers, which on a per capita basis is a very heavy hit. Canada only has a population of about thirty million.

As a westerner, I'm wondering where was all the help for western farmers when their grain and cattle were not worth anything for decades? Most farmers just quietly went out of business. They moved to the cities and survived as best they could. Windsor and Detroit didn't seem to care about that.

Maybe it really doesn't matter if the Big 3 survive or not, as long as someone keeps making cars in North America and people have jobs. If Toyota and Honda can make vehicles here and make money doing it, let them at it. I'll just keep on buying used Chevys.

A big new Japanese based plant opened in Ontario this week, giving jobs to a lot of unemployed people. The wages and benefits are not as high as with the Big 3, but they still are good jobs.

 

[Speedpup]

Have heard that the 'big 3' employ more workers in mexico, than the USA.

Why don't they ask mexico for a bail out?

they employed 355,000 here so I doubt it is even close. They have shut down some plants in Mexico also.

They got 17 billion and were dragged through the mud but AIG got 165 billion and didn't even show up or was not told what to do with the money. They are far from perfect but there are many more worse companies just getting billions.

Toyota will now probably post a loss for this year also. They all need to wake up the car buying frenzy is over in this country and people have to spend what they have not just rediculous credit amounts they have got. Union will have to wake up now also.

With car sales dropping from 17 million per year to less than 11 million next year all manufacturers are in trouble around the world.

Foreign companies were all trying to move to the large SUV and truck market for high profit vehicles. Now with low gas prices Pruis is tanking also. Nissan was in serious trouble few years back so the Japnese are far from perfect. Izuzu is gone from this country and Mazda was in trouble until Ford bought a large share.

When you have a company like Korea dumping 800,000 cars here in the USA each year and allowing just about no foreign cars sold in their country something is wrong with our system. How many countries block our products for decades like Japan from rice, lumber products, beef, construction firm, insurance firms and autos? Let's have fair trade not a oneway street we are now paying for.

Domestics are also competing with countries with national health-care and they have little legacy cost only being here 20 years. They purposly hired young people to avoid it.

Many suppliers to all the car companies here are on the brink of broke so all companies will be affected here, even Toyota is worried. When we can't get parts for pickups and vans see how many businesses are going to be hurt. Things will change for the better. The domestics were moving in the right direction they just hit with the perfect storm, credit, fuel prices, and this horrible economy.

Doubt any would recover from bankruptcy as 80% of the public said they won't buy from a bankrupt company which would really bury them. New hires at UAW get 14 per hour and little benefits that is why they bought out many employees and cleared their books of the health-care and pension liabilities to get the 14 per hr. worker.

Wonder how long till the equipment manufacturers will be in deep trouble also. Look at Sterling Trucks going bye bye.

 

[Speedpup]

The Mazda pickup is actually a rebadged Ranger, one of the rare cases where a Japanese company contracted with an American company to produce a vehicle for them.

new Nissan pickup will be a Dodge.

 

[milling_drum]

Lets try to be sensible.

All these vehicles use gas/oil. The media have no problem painting a picture of profits for those oil companies and how much the auto industry is failing for whatever reason.

Why don't they take some of those record profits from the oil industry and give some funds outta that too the big three because....

One hand feeds the other

 

[CM1995]

Why don't they take some of those record profits from the oil industry and give some funds outta that too the big three because....

One hand feeds the other

Let me preface with I am not in any way taking up for the oil companies. I believe the run up in fuel prices pushed our economy over the line into a severe recession and a few people made alot of money doing it.

But-

How is it equitiable to take money made by one industry and give it to another, regardless of their "market affiliation"? Example: A big road contractor gets a $100M contract to add lanes to the local HWY. His profit margin is 15% which means he made $15M on the project, which is a pretty good lick. Now the Real Estate developers located around the HWY are being hit pretty hard, some going into bankruptcy. Now if it wasn't for the real estate developers building shopping malls, apartments, office buildings and houses in and around this HYW, there would be no increase in traffic on the roads around the developments, which would not require a $100M contract to upgrade the roads in the first place.

Now should we take some of the road builders profits to "bail out" the developers that are having a hard time because "one hand feeds the other"?

 

[milling_drum]

Thats a great example you have presented.

What I was thinking was about the fuel issue being used as a bargining point for the automakers, which is pretty much happening. They have agreed to make fuel efficient cars in the future instead of gas guzzlers that are something extremely desirable to most folks here.

In my opinion both industries used each other to maximize each others profits for a good little while, in that frame of mind I feel they should take a hit too.

The mismanagement issues will never cease unless regulations are put into place where oversight has at least minimal control.

The developers would come crying to the roadbuilders to help. Whether or not they got it is another story.

 

[Dozerboy]

Regulations are part of the problem. If the big 3 didn't have to redesign the line up every few years to meet the new Crab standers they would be better off. Who do you think knows more about building car then auto manufactures? The government, since if they need more $$$ they just raise taxes or print more?

 

[dieseldave]

Regulations are part of the problem. If the big 3 didn't have to redesign the line up every few years to meet the new Crab standers they would be better off. Who do you think knows more about building car then auto manufactures? The government, since if they need more $$$ they just raise taxes or print more?

Dozerboy, you've hit on an important point here. The American automakers, while not perfect by any means, have been put at a disadvantage over the years by doing what any good capitalist would do- giving the people what they want. Americans, for the most part, want big powerful vehicles and are willing to pay for them and put up with the inconveniences that go with them. But along come the Feds (at the behest of the Greenies) and hobble them by insisting that they maintain a certain fuel mileage standard across the product line, which is a lot easier to do if your primary product is compact cars (meaning imports). Obviously they have been favoring the foreign car makers all along- don't even get me started about tariffs and export restrictions on American-made vehicles, tax breaks and land grants for the imports being made here, etc. I'm usually not one for govt bailouts and the like, but in this case Big Brother had a hand in creating the mess and it's fair that He should help clean it up.