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tractor pans or scrapers which do you like better

Discussion in 'Scrapers' started by Taylortractornu, Dec 6, 2003.

  1. Taylortractornu

    Taylortractornu Charter Member

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    Im trying very hard to accept tractor pans now, Ive worked a few jobs wit hthem mostly converted farms that go into dirt moving. I cant stand to run one too slow for me they are a bit more comfortable but they arent very manuveralbe to me plus they take longer to get out and usually have to be pulled. I ve seen some smller ones that did good but I worked for a company that had 12 of them. They were mostly new units but they had alot of trouble rear end going out and things like that. THe mechanic said that a self propelled scraper would tear the rear end out quicker than a tractor. I couldnt get him to realize we moved a million yards of dirt at the landfill with a 1975 762 JD scraper let alone how much it had moved before the land fill had it and we had no troubles. I know it costs more to buy a scraper and it has a little less cappacity thant some tractors can pull but I stll would rather have a selfcontained scraper.
    THe first big job I was on with dad we took 2 worn out TS14B Terexes an the little 762 Paddle wheel and started on a 50 000 yard hill. The hill next to us another out fit got it and they brought in 4 new articulate Case/Stiegers a Cat Challenger,and a big articulated JD l of them had 2 new 24 yard pans. They told us how much cheaper and quicker theyed be doing the work. They stayed stuck, styed in each others way and so on. Ir was a pretty big job and in a few sockpiles youd always see on gettin drug off the side by the back pan. When they got hung they had to usually undo the rear pan then pull on it with a cable. When we got stuck dad usually just pushed us out with the D6. Mostly in the sand we never had to push load a Terex either.
    I know a tractor isnt tied down to one Item only like a scraper but ive hardly seen many jobs that needed a multi use machine like that. Here alot of older farm tractors are cheap enough to have a disk or straw machine and sheeps foot and a tractor for each.
     
  2. motrack

    motrack Charter Member

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    Deere really pushed the tractor/pan combo when I was working for them and we sold several. All the contractors who had them liked them as they had lower operating cost then a regular scraper.

    The dealer I work for now just received some CDs from New Holland compairing the operating cost of tractor scrapers v regular scrapers, havent had time to look at it yet but NH is really pushing the tractor scraper combo thing.

    the drawback to tractor scrapers are you cant turn as tightly, and harder to transport from one job to the next. Never seen one stuck to the point we had to unhook the scrapers.

    If you are going tractor scraper combo you need a tractor with big HP and a powershift trany. I have seen guys try it with old tractors that had smaller engines and manual tranys only to be dissapointed in there performnce.

    There is a learning curve to operating this setup and once you learn HOW to load it I think you would be inpressed.
     
  3. PAYTON

    PAYTON Charter Member

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    bell 4 wheel drive tractor pull units are nice when its dry..there programable for the loading and unloading.. yes they do get stuck but its not that bad normally..

    were running 3 on day shift and there decent espically for stripping top soil.

    i know when we were doing the i70 work just west of indy walsh tried running a bunch of case with pull behinds and they were getting spanked.. always breaking down. half the time they could only load 1 pull instead of 3 they ended up bringing in a company running 637s the 37 smoked the tractor pan combos.. and i mean smoked them the 37s could run almost 2 loads to the t/p combos 1

    me personally i dont like any pan! i hate them they suck im a young guy and i wanna be able to walk when im older ill stick 2 tracks thanks very much..


    payton
     
  4. Taylortractornu

    Taylortractornu Charter Member

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    I mostly run a 762 paddle wheel finishing so its easy going. Never been on a Cat scraper. I started out on th paddle wheel when I was 15. Alot of its in driving a scraper though1, I know some operators that are out looking for a rough ride. On the 762 its so light it bounces if you dont hld the accelerator flat on the floor to elemininate rpm surges. Dad says if i ever run a 621 or 37 ive not get on another Terex. I mostly operate dozer and excavator, and backhoe now.
    I did one time run a few tractors with LGP tires on a soft job they did good with. I think the pans were Ashlands or Cepcos. running balloon tires. Then we brought in articultaed dumps and excavators they were faster than the tractors in some conditions.
    On transport the company I worked for out of MO had a few tractor pans they drove from Poplarbluff MO all the way to Huntsville AL. THey said it was cheaper thant to break them down and haul them on low boys. I thought it was hard to belive to pay 2 escorts,fuels stops,4 tractor drivers at 17.50 an hour for 4 days pluss a set of worn out tires. The asphault loves tractor tires. Dad used to road scrapers lot way back when but he said lowboys werent super common here. I saw a funny crature a clearing company uses to build roads a 648 JD skidder pulling a little 5 yard pan. That was a pathetic animal lol. by the time you carry five yards and run the skidder over it every thing in the ground is pumping.
     
  5. motrack

    motrack Charter Member

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    A Deere skidder pulling a 5yd pan would be a waste of time for anything but a small job..............once seen a contractor with 3 old Deere skidders that had dump boxes mounted on the back and was useing them for off road trucks.
     
  6. PAYTON

    PAYTON Charter Member

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    roading equipment isnt that uncommon.. ive done it in the past 6 months actually.. nothing major.. but around indy.. if funny as hell to see 14g grader running down teh road or a trator.. hell ive even taken a 400 cat dump down the road .

    longest ive ever roaded a piece of equipment was a 627e from bedford indiana to evansville indiana 2 hour drive in a truck running 65.. 8 hours on a scrapper.. there was 3 of us not a bad day actually except for my brakes locking up and stranding me on the side of the hughway..



    oayton
     
  7. Taylortractornu

    Taylortractornu Charter Member

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    Motrac that was a pitiful site with the scraper behind it. I t was a little Prime that has a scissor type lift so one lever lowers raises and dumps it all. whats sad it yo ucant see what your doing. I ran it about 10 minutes and did better than the guy that owned it But it was too clumsy. I cussed it like a red headed stepchild. What was bad the man we did the job for he had rented another mans 400 MF dozer with a straight blade. He could dump a pile and i could go through it like butter. Id wait for him to do about 7 loads to make it work walking the dozer. One thing I did like about the skidder was it had a brush rake on the front. The owner claimed it would out rake a D8K but i sincerely doubt it. It probably would out push it on loose stuff like cut overs and save on an under carriage.
    Payton I ve roaded my share of equipment but never a great distance. I did move an old Trojan loader and a Case both with worn out center pins about 40 miles one theres still some nice marks in the road from it too. You just had to counte wiggle the steering lol. Dad has some good stories of roading old S9 Euclids when he was a boy, and also old DW20' and 21's.
    Dad and I both have oved scrapers ith a tractor or truck tire pinched in the apron or between the elevator and the cutting edge. That works pretty good except on a gravel road then its like bb's.
     
  8. Steve Frazier

    Steve Frazier Founder

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    From what I've seen in the equipment trade magazines, the Tractor/scraper combos seem to be phasing out the self contained units. I'm seeing more and more of these units for sale, the numbers are catching up with the dedicated scrapers.
     
  9. 9420pullpan

    9420pullpan Senior Member

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    i have @ 2500 hours on a 9420 pull pan

    first of all they are great for stripping topsoil, wet conditions, and light cuts. advantages include cheaper than typical pan, but these pull type scrapers have to have the right conditions. they are worthless in the rock. i really like the john deere tractors they are probably the best. as far as the pans dont get deere pans JUNK. not built heavy enough. the miskin and e-ject systems pulltype scrapers in my opinion are the best. if in soft conditions i would definately consider buying a pan with tracks on the pan. i know ashland and e-ject systems make them. the tractors will go about anywhere it is the pan which acts like an anchor. with the tracks this lowers ground pressure which makes working in wet conditions easier. i have definately done alot of research on these i went to the con expo saw all the new equipment so if u have any questions. please ask!!! miskin invented a pull pan with a system to help heap the load. it uses and air compressor and it shoots bursts of air just behind the cuttin edge to heap load!! ask away!!!!
     
  10. 9420pullpan

    9420pullpan Senior Member

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    pullpans for stripping topsoil and light cuts. Cat Push/Pull type pans in any other application especially rock
     
  11. Buckethead

    Buckethead Senior Member

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    I have only run self-propelled scrapers like Cat 627s and 637s and Terex ts-14s, 18s and 24s, never run a farm tractor drawn pan. A friend of mine ran them behind a John Deere when they first came out he said the pan was narrower than the tractor, making it impossible for dumping on the edge of a topsoil pile, or fill. :Banghead Are the newer ones better matched to the width of the tractors? And how do you see the cutting edge of the rear pan to keep the cut and the fill smooth?
     
  12. Burnout

    Burnout Senior Member

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    Does anyone have numbers on productivity of the pullpan/tractor combo's? The company I work for is known for being big on Cat Scrapers, they have a huge fleet of 657's (60+) and last year they bought a Deere 9520 to pull a pan but ended up getting sacked to a big disc and box blade for haul road maintenance. I have always wondered what they were like compared to our 627's though.
     
  13. mitchell2905

    mitchell2905 Well-Known Member

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  14. Turbo21835

    Turbo21835 Senior Member

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    Ive never run a tractor with a pan, but spent plenty of time in Ts14s Cat 627Es and 627Gs. From what ive seen, self propeled scrapers are for moving dirt, tractors are for pulling a drag box, disk, sheepsfoot, or farming. Not moving dirt. They are too slow, and seems they are too limited to conditions. The last place i worked dirt had the competition running Cat challangers. They said the challangers are able to work in wet conditions. Yet, if we got an inch of rain, those guys were down for 3 days, our Ts14s were rolling the next day. If the jobsite was wet, I never saw the other company running the pains hooked togther, they always dropped one. They take twice as long to make a run as we would, while pulling 1 pan it seems like they would be losing their ass
     
  15. mitchell2905

    mitchell2905 Well-Known Member

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    We had some Cat srapers at our operation when we started, but quickly got rid of them and got Challengers because the self-propelled units were way to slow. The Challengers and John Deere tractors can move much more dirt quicker and at a much lower cost. But the operators do drive fast enough to get all 4 wheels off the ground on occasion!:dizzy
     
  16. ror76a

    ror76a Well-Known Member

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    I suspect that that is a highly biased study. :stirthepot

    That must be one powerfull D6 to burn 16 gallons of fuel an hour. I seriously doubt that tractors and pull pans would not require a compactor. I also think that a regular scraper can take care of a haul road just as good if not better than a tractor/pan combo would. And I could go on, but you get the point.

    This all depends on the site conditions more than anything, but I woulden't believe that comparison any more that I would believe a used car salesman.

    Now where can I buy fuel for $1.50/gal like it said on there....:D
     
  17. 637slayer

    637slayer Senior Member

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    i have always believed the cat twin engine scraper to be the most versatile all around piece of machinery cat ever made, the 37 to be my favorite. from building roads to digging lakes the only support equipment you need is a fuel truck, unless you get into rock then you need a ripper.
    ive never run a pull scraper but i think tractors are for farming too.
     
  18. mitchell2905

    mitchell2905 Well-Known Member

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    Self propelled scrapers will soon go the way of the Dinosaur. Ag tractors and pans are the wave of the future. No mines or dirt-moving operation around my area uses traditional scrapers any more.
     
  19. JDOFMEMI

    JDOFMEMI Senior Member

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    Those of you touting the pull pans are lucky enough to be in a portion of the country where the soil is consistent. Here on the west coast, the jobs are varied from one to the next, and even from one side of the site to the other. Many have tried pull pans, and I do not know of a single one within 200 miles, and I live in the scraper capital of the world, over 2500 scrapers 623 and larger in that same 200 mile area.
    The scraper study referenced above has so many holes in it, you could not bail out a mudhole.
    The pull pans have their place, just not here.
    Here tractors pull discs and bee gee's, or they work on the farm.
     
  20. Turbo21835

    Turbo21835 Senior Member

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    Explain to me how tractors are quicker than a self propelled machine? The info I find and challengers says they have a top ROAD speed of 24mph. Where as a Cat 627G has a top speed of 32mph while the cat 637G and 657G have a top speed of 33mph. I personally have had a 627G up to 36mph unloaded. My average speed while loaded was easily 30mph. Mind you that was with a rated capacity of 52,800lbs. I dont know of any tractor pan combos that can do that.

    I dont understand how these tractor combos can even compare. Yes, purchase is lower, fuel is lower. But you have twice as many tires on the tractor compared to the self propelled. Then your looking at another 2-4 on each pan You have twice as many hitchs, cutting edges, lifting systems to repair. You have to break everything down to move it. at best, 2 truckloads if you have a truck driver who has the testicles to move a tractor with one pan hitched up, but more than likely its 3 trucks.

    I see the upside vs a elevating scraper. They are not a production machine compared to an open bowl. But the elevators will always have their place with a finish crew. I think they may even compete with the single engines on an actual dirt site. Compete with the twins, for time and productivity? No way. The twins will maintain their own haul road with out slowing down to a crawl. They will out run, and out manuever a tractor with two pans. Lets see a tractor/pan work with a dozer while cutting a V ditch. Bring your tractor/pans to a rock job and compete with the twins, tell me how it works out for ya