Starting problems - Cold or Air in lines?

[greg9504]

Hi,
I have a JCB 212s with a Perkins 4 cylinder diesel. I've owned it for several years and never really had a problem starting it in the cold. By cold I mean anything below -10C (14F). I've started it down to -20C (-4F) as long as I have plugged in the block heater. Previous years I always added some diesel anti gel to the fuel before it got cold. This year I didn't. Right before the first big snow I did an oil change and decided to try to drain any water from the two fuel filters. I ended up not removing either filter. I just undid the bottom drain enough until fuel ran out. After I did this it was a bit hard to start, but it did eventually. I ran it for a bit, checked my oil levels, then shut it off. I didn't try to start it again until it snowed a few days later.

Unfortunately I also added fuel to the tank at the same time and FORGOT to put the cap back on the tank. So snow definitely got in the tank.

I then tried to start it after it snowed. It fired right up and ran for a few minutes at idle. Then stalled. I turned it over again and it ran rough then stalled. I then added some fuel line antifreeze and anti gel to the tank. Used a heat gun on the clear fuel filter. Then it fired up and ran fine for several hours while I plowed snow. Shut the machine off and didn't go to run it for a few weeks.

I go to start it yesterday, it's -15C (5F) out, machine is plugged in. Fires right up. Runs for 1 minute, then stalls. I start it again and it runs rough and I try to feather the throttle to keep it running but it eventually stalls and will not start again.

Today I put a heater under it (just a 5000W electric, friend has my 70k btu kerosene heater), a magnetic heater on the fuel tank, and put a tarp over it to trap the heater air. It's -11C today. I leave it like that for a few hours. I try it and it starts, but again only runs for about a minute then stalls. I couldn't get it to run again.

Access to the fuel lines is a hard, as muffler is mounted on top of the engine... so I haven't tried to crack a line.

Does this sound like air getting in (lose filter?) or frozen water in the lines? Or something else?

If I leave the key in the on position (engine not running) I can hear fuel running back into the tank continuously. I didn't think this had an electric pump but I can hear what sounds like liquid moving in the tank.

Thanks for any suggestions.

 

[Junkyard]

Have you stuck a new filter on it? Once a filter gets frozen fuel and crud through they never really work right. Anytime I run into one that's gelled I stick filters on it. Sounds to me like it gelled. Can you drain the fuel and refill with treated #1 and start over? That's what I'd try.

Can you disconnect line at filter and blow back to tank? Most of those machines had a mechanical lift pump driven by cam. If it has a mechanical lift pump there's a screen at the fuel inlet that likes to plug up. Remove line then remove the big nut which will allow you to finagle the screen out. Nut on my JCB 508C with Perkins is like a 1-1/16" or so.

 

[Delmer]

Get a can of #1, stick the fuel inlet into it instead of the tank, and prime it, start it, repeat until it stays running. Let it run back into the tank until almost empty. If you have questionable summer fuel, then you want at least half #1 in it. Or enough additive and warmed up and mixed. The anti gel prevents waxing and gelling, only 911 (or heat) disolves it once waxed.

If there was water in the filters, that's a bad sign. Change them like JY said. Is there a drain on the tank, and did you drain that?

 

[greg9504]

Hi,
Thanks for the replies. I've attached some pictures and a video to help explain what I'm seeing and what I've done. After playing around a bit, and really doing nothing more than draining some fuel from the filter the machine ran, but only for a little bit and it started to run a bit rough. So I applied a bit of throttle, that kept the rpm's up and it ran, until I tried to let it idle. Then it just died and it would not start.

So I removed the fuel filter and installed a new one that I had. I filled the filter bowl with new diesel mixed with the antigel. Engine still wont start.

I have NOT done anything to prime it because I can not find the lift pump. Here is what the manual says:


I can NOT find anything that looks like that on the side of the engine. I crawled all around looking for it. It is possible that this engine doesn't have it. I believe I have the tier II version, which has glow plugs vs the pre heater, perhaps this is another difference.

What I have noticed is that with the key on, I hear what sounds like a small electric pump noise coming from the injector pump area, and I can hear fuel moving through the lines. Sorry, I know very little about diesel fuel systems. Here's a video of what I hear:

Is this self priming? Or should I keep looking for the lift pump?

The black line at the top of the pump comes from the filter:


At this point I have not touched the sediment bowl. There doesn't appear to be any water in it.


This is what the old filter looked like:


It did drain a bit as it warmed up after I took it inside, but not a whole lot.

I have not drained the tank. I'll see what I can do, but I think I'll need to get it warm. I do have one of those magnetic tank warmers on there, but being so cold I don't think it's doing too much.

Thanks for any thoughts.
Greg.

 

[Delmer]

Yes, that sure sounds and looks like an electric pump to me.

If there's ice in your tank, it will take a long time to thaw. That's why I thought a can of #1 (or fresh winterized) is the way to go. With those plastic lines it should be easy to take one end off the tank and stick it in a can of fuel. The locking tab sticks into the side of those fittings, right?

No need to drain the whole tank, just see if fuel comes out, then there's not too much ice if fuel comes out.

 

[greg9504]

OK I feel dumb. Turns out this is an electric lift pump/filter housing:

If I can figure out how to get the connector off I'll verify I have good flow on the output.

I was thinking I should take off the line that goes to the injector pump from the filter/lift pump here:


and see if there is any kind of screen that may be blocked. I wish I knew how these connectors worked... don't want to break the plastic.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Its gonna be easier to get the line off the filter end.. just push in both button tabs, push in, twist & pull..
CAREFUL> they WILL break on ya.

 

[Delmer]

TPG to the rescue. Warm it up to help it come off with out breaking.

It helps when the manual describes what's on your machine, not what's on a machine they built decades ago.

 

[greg9504]

OK, I did a few more things today after I figured out that the filter assembly was also the electric lift pump.

- I took off the sediment bowl, cleaned it (there was some thick slime on the bottom). Put a new sediment filter in, filled it with kerosene and put the bowl back on.
- I took off the line going to the injection pump from the filter/lift pump, to do that I warmed it up a bit and yes just push in the tabs on both sides then pull. With the key on very little fuel is coming out, sometimes it will run faster in spurts but it's all foamy. Not a constant stream like I would expect.

and one of the sediment bowl, if you look close you can see some bubbles near the top moving around...

- With the key on, I did notice that sometimes the fuel level in the sediment bowl would go down about an inch, then fill back up. At the time the line leading to the injection pump was disconnected and was dumping fuel into a container. I've tried removing the bleed screw on the top of the sediment bowl, but that didn't seem to help.

I cracked open the supply line on the bottom of the tank, fuel ran out. So I don't think its frozen there. There could still be a blockage somewhere in the lines but I'm leaning towards a bad electric lift pump. I wish it was easier to get at the supply line to the filter/lift pump so I could stick it in a can of fuel and test the pump. I will try to do that tomorrow.

It is supposed to get above freezing on the weekend, and my friend is returning my 70k btu heater, so I can tent it and get everything nice and warm.

 

[cuttin edge]

A bit of airbrake antifreeze should clear up any water. Can't see that much snow going in the tank. I had a Puckett grader that would act like that when the fuel shut off went bad. It had an older Perkins with the prime pump shown in the picture. It was on the opposite side of the block as the injector pump. Perhaps she is sucking air some place.

 

[Delmer]

with all that slurping it sure sounds like it's pumping air to me. Is the sediment bowl on the suction side of the electric pump? That could be a place for air to get in. Or maybe the tank is higher than the sediment bowl?

Or maybe there's a plugged screen on the intake of the pump?

Hard to guess not knowing the layout. Time to take some more fittings apart to find out, or pressurize the tank to help prime it and maybe find a leak in the process.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Don't forget, water is heavier than fuel, so all the "snow" ended up in the bottom of the tank.
Remove the line on the other side of the filter & blow back to the fuel tank..
Take the fuel cap off FIRST & listen for bubbles.
Then reassemble.. Leave the line off going to the INJ> PUMP & turn the key on & wait for fuel to start flowing, then put that line back on..
That lift pump is supposed to put out about 5psi.. enough to get you wet.. so if its just dribbling/dripping out, you have a problem..
You could disconnect the fuel IN LINE on the filter head n turn the key on & hold your finger over the connector.. if it working good it should suck your finger..

 

[greg9504]

The sediment bowl is on the suction side of the electric pump. Today I took off the line at the tank, and the tank ran freely from the output, the output is about 3 inches off the bottom of the tank. I then put the line back on and blew compressed air from the sediment bowl toward the tank. Line seems clear. I had a kit for the seals on the sediment bowl, so I put new seals in it. There is flow now, but it will not start. Not sure if the flow is strong enough, and it's just a coincidence after blowing the line, that the pump is working a bit better. I guess there could still be something wrong with the line between the sediment bowl and the pump. The pump is strong enough to fill the empty sediment bowl, but sometimes the level in the sediment bowl drops. Not sure what that means.

fuel level dropping in sediment bowl

fuel running out of pump, seems a bit erratic

I found this in Perkins manual for my engine, I have the Bosch injector pump:
Priming the Bosch Fuel Injection Pump
1. Turn the keyswitch to the ON position and allow 90
seconds for the electric priming pump to prime the
system.
2. Turn the keyswitch to the OFF position and then
start the engine. Check for leaks in the fuel system.
Refer to this Operation and Maintenance Manual,
“Starting the Engine” for more information

I've done that over and over, no luck.

The input line at the pump is bit hard to get at, I'll try tomorrow to take it off and run a line to a can of fuel, to eliminate the sediment bowl/lines.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Now that you have fuel flowing, you opened the system & it has air in it.
Once the filters are full & you have fuel heading towards the inj. pump.
Loosen the lines AT THE INJECTORS, pull the throttle wide open & spin the engine until fuel squirts out of the loosened lines at the injectors.. Then tighten.
Make sure you have voltage at the shut-off solenoid on the inj. pump while cranking, you might have a blown fuse.

 

[greg9504]

Yes I already checked the fuse for the shut off solenoid. I have even swapped fuses. I will double check that there is voltage at the solenoid. The top of the engine doesn't seem all that accessible, hopefully I can get at the injectors without too much trouble.
Thanks.

Just curious why I see the sediment bowl fill up, then run down about an inch (like in the video above), then eventually it fills back up. Shouldn't it stay full?

 

[hookedondiesel]

Ya, I'm sure it should stay full. Having it empty itself like that would introduce air in the fuel. My guess would be there's a blockage somewhere or the pump is going. Should be warmer tomorrow, so you can check things out better then. A test light on the solenoid would tell you if you have voltage or not. Is it a big job to remove the electric pump and filter assembly so you could test it on a bench etc.

 

[greg9504]

Well good news. It's running!
I would like to tell you I did something genius but no.
Before I was going to attempt to crack the lines at the injectors I decided to give some starting fluid a shot. The loader arms were in the way and I couldn't get the air filter out, so I just sprayed a little into the filter housing. It cranked but seemed to almost lock up, then spin, then finally it fired and ran. I left it idle for about 10 minutes while I cleaned up. Then plowed snow for about 15 minutes. Then shut it down. It started back up no problems. Still not convinced the pump is strong. Maybe with the slightly warmer weather (-5C today) the pump is delivering enough fuel and the quick start was enough to get it spinning enough to bleed the air?

Here's two videos. One shows what happens in the sediment bowl as I turn the key on (engine off), and leave the key on. It drains down about 1", I then shut off the key and it fills back up.

The second video shows the sediment bowl as the engine is running. Again it's down about 1". I've never really paid attention to it before, so I don't know if this is normal.

I've ordered a replacement lift pump to have on hand, seems like a useful spare even if I don't need it.

Thanks again to those that replied.

 

[hookedondiesel]

Glad you got it going, in the first vid, it seems as if the pump is loosing prime. You would think it should have a steady hum to it. I guess the only way would be to supply another fuel supply from a container. Where are you getting your parts from?

 

[thepumpguysc]

LOL.. I could tell you were getting to the "quick start" point.. LOL
If I'm not mistaken, the lift pump is pressure sensitive?? it'll reach what it supposed to pump, {pressure} then quit, then pump somemore.. could be why your seeing the rise & fall in the bowl.??
Glad you got it going..
isn't that elect. lift pump about 200.00 US?? pretty expensive for " a spare" to be sitting around..
Better to take that money & invest in spare fuel filters & change often, seeing you ALREADY KNOW theres some water in the tank.. JMO

 

[greg9504]

The pump/filter I ordered is a cheap Chinese knock off. Probably because they copied the complete Perkins engine at some point.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/272044463277

has a few positive reviews. OEM was closer to $300 US that I could find on line.
But yes I'll order some more filters too.

I did learn a lot. What I thought was the fuel shut off solenoid is in fact part of the cold start advance unit. The fuel shut off solenoid is on top of the injection pump toward the rear.

I'm hoping that the pump is OK and that it was a restriction in the line. Fingers crossed.

hookedondiesel, Wajax is no longer the local JCB dealer. https://reisequipment.com/ is. Yesterday I ordered a new seal kit for the sediment bowl (before I found I already had one in my box of spares) and it arrived today.