JD 510b starter solenoid?

[Bwar77]

Hey guys,
*********I got a new issue with my JD 510b, unfortunately before I was
able to fix the old issue (injection pump). This originally started when
I first got the backhoe, I would press the start button on the control
panel and sometimes it wouldn't work, which required repeated pressing.
But it always started. But as time went on, it got worse, more and more
times I had to press it to get it to start. I would press the button,
and if the starter didn't turn over it would give a "click" under the
control panel. It eventually would catch though and crank the starter.
But not anymore. All I get is the click. The starter is still good, as
I've jumped the starter to get it to crank.
Is my problem the solenoid on the starter? Wasn't sure since it was
"clicking" under my instrument panel. And if it is the solenoid, is
there aftermarket solenoid that would be cheaper? I saw the starter
solenoid is about $113 from John Deere...
Thanks for your help, Brian

 

[El Hombre]

Perform a voltage drop test. You probably never heard of this, but essentially what you do is parallel the existing circuit with a volt meter leads.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/voltage_drop_testing.htm

Just follow the instructions in the link. When I was taught this 35 years ago, I was just amazed at how easy it was to locate the problem. What you're doing is to go one by one thru everything in the circuit. The meter will tell you when you find the problem. This completely ended my throw parts at it diagnosis.

 

[Deon]

EL HOMBER,
That is a super nice piece of information. I have printed it and attached the page to my 310D Technical Manuel for future use.

Thanks

 

[Bwar77]

JD 510b Starter issue

Hey guys, finally got a chance to work on the backhoe, I need longer
days and weekends! I was able to get a known working starter and install
it to try and trace some of my issues. I'm not good with electrical, so
this to me is my best bet to solve my issue. So here is where I'm at: I
installed the starter, and still, nothing. I turn the key switch on, hit
the start button, the solenoid on the starter works, I can hear/feel it
engage, but the starter will not turn. The gear lever is in neutral. If
I have it in forward or reverse the starter solenoid will not engage, so
I guess this will rule out the neutral safety switch, correct? I've
replaced the small solenoid under the instrument panel, so I know that
works as well. So what is left? If I hit the start button 100 times, one
of those times the starter will engage and start the engine. Any ideas
where to look next?

Thanks,

Brian

 

[Deon]

From what you are describing it could be a bad connection at the battery or any one of the terminals from the battery to the solenoids and the starter. The only thing is that I would expect you to hear some arcing. But it is still possible that you have a connection that will be strong enough to get the solenoid to click but not solid enough to give amperage that will turn the starter. A voltage tester is of no use here. A voltage drop test would work but just removing all you connectors one by one and scraping off all corrosion and rust and tightening everything up will solve any bad connection.

 

[rockdog]

Bwar, everything you describe I've had with my 410b. I replaced the solenoid under the panel. The neutral switch. Brand new starter from JD. New push button. New key switch. New battery's. Checked all the cables and wiring. Thought I had it licked. Now she is starting do do it again. At one point I got so pissed, I hooked up a push button that jumped straight from post to post on the starter. Worked every time then, but it made me nervous that it would get pushed while the engine was running.
These things have a cut out on the starter circuit that destroke's the hydraulic pump while starting. I've wondered if it isn't something to do with that. I live with it because I don't use the old girl much.
If you find the culprit I'd sure like to know as I'm electrically challenged.

 

[bill onthehill]

Try putting NEW cables from the batteries on the machine. I bought my old John Deere from an outfit that fought with it for about 5 years with starting issues. They used to get me to come start it when they wanted to use it. I replaced the cable after buying it from them (cheap) and have used it for over 10 years without issues. Over time the copper wire inside loses the ability to pass good amperage to the starter.

 

[Deon]

Try putting NEW cables from the batteries on the machine. I bought my old John Deere from an outfit that fought with it for about 5 years with starting issues. They used to get me to come start it when they wanted to use it. I replaced the cable after buying it from them (cheap) and have used it for over 10 years without issues. Over time the copper wire inside loses the ability to pass good amperage to the starter.

bill onthehill, you could be right but it was most likely a crimp connector that was corroded and therefor did not connect to the cable. I have a crimp connector in the console under the key switch that is showing green corrosion. I almost replaced it when I found it but I do not yet have the starter issue. That will be the first thing I repair if I do.

 

[willie59]

I second the thoughts of others, make certain all your battery and cable connections are good, including the ground cable that goes from frame to engine. One thing to do for certain, put a voltmeter on the wire that comes from starter button and connects to starter solenoid. Hit the starter button and see what kind of voltage you are getting, may have to hold starter button in for a moment to get good voltage reading. If the voltage is below 8 or 9 volts at the start terminal on starter solenoid, you're not getting enough voltage to pull start solenoid in fully and engage starter.

 

[Deon]

ATCO, I respect your knowledge as I have been reading your posts for quite a while now and really believe you know your stuff. But is it not possible to get 12 volts on a single strand of wire or a badly corroded wire but get very poor amperage? Please educate me.

 

[willie59]

ATCO, I respect your knowledge as I have been reading your posts for quite a while now and really believe you know your stuff. But is it not possible to get 12 volts on a single strand of wire or a badly corroded wire but get very poor amperage? Please educate me.

Yes, you can get 12V on a single strand of wire, but a single strand of wire can not support any load (amperage).

Look at it this way; imagine you connected a single strand of wire to positive battery terminal. Connect a volt meter to that strand of wire, it would read 12V. Then touch the start terminal on starter solenoid with that strand of wire (solenoid coil = load), there wouldn't be enough conductor with that single strand of wire to supply the load demand the solenoid is requiring. What happens then is voltage drops substantially.

Again, as others said, check all your cable connections. But you stated you could hit the starter 100 times and one time out of that 100 it would crank and start. Well, if that "one time" it cranks with a bit of vigor, I suspect you're having a voltage drop issue with start wire circuit going to starter solenoid. That's why I suggested putting a volt meter on the start terminal of starter and see what voltage you're getting when attempting to crank with starter button.

 

[Deon]

ATCO,
Now I understand. The voltage drops only when applying a load. Is it because its overheating the bad connection and turning it into a resister?

 

[willie59]

ATCO,
Now I understand. The voltage drops only when applying a load. Is it because its overheating the bad connection and turning it into a resister?

With electricity, when a conductor (wire) cannot supply the amount of current (amps) that a load component (solenoid coil) is demanding, either because the conductor is too small for current demanded or because of bad terminal connections, the conductor does then become a resistor because the conductor is "resisting" the amount of current the load component requires. Amps on the conductor will then increase and the resistance will generate heat.

If I'm correct in my suspicion, disconnect start wire from start terminal on solenoid. Connect a volt meter to the start wire, hit start button, note voltage, it will likely be in the 12 +/- range.

Reconnect the start wire to start terminal on solenoid, connect volt meter to start terminal, hit starter button, note voltage. If you're getting a reading in the 7 to 9 volt range, that would be a substantial voltage drop on the start circuit causing solenoid to not receive the amount of current the solenoid requires.

A simple test would be connecting a jumper wire from battery positive terminal at starter to start terminal on solenoid. If starter works fine then, it would confirm excessive voltage drop on start circuit.

 

[Bwar77]

Fixed!

Guys,
Thanks so much for all your help with this. I learned quite a bit just from these posts and was finally able to put some of this knowledge to use.
Deon, when I started tracing all the wires, I found a corroded wire under a boot attached to a solenoid. This is the only solenoid I didn't replace, I did the starter solenoid and the one under the instrument panel. So once I removed this solenoid and cleaned up all the wires/posts, added some elec grease and put back together she fires right up everytime!
So thanks again for everyones help! Next up, need to bleed injectors. Never done that before, but, it ain't electrical, should be able to handle it!

Thanks,
Brian

 

[willie59]

Glad to hear you got it sorted out Bwar77. :drinkup

Terminal boots. Gawd they drive me crazy. They are fitted with good intentions, even those boots that cover battery terminals. But I have a habit of removing those boots promptly. Why? It's been my experience they are not protector boots as much as they are corrosion generators.

 

[rockdog]

Bwar, Where was the solenoid at. Tried to start my 410 last night. It's doing it again.

Guys,
Thanks so much for all your help with this. I learned quite a bit just from these posts and was finally able to put some of this knowledge to use.
Deon, when I started tracing all the wires, I found a corroded wire under a boot attached to a solenoid. This is the only solenoid I didn't replace, I did the starter solenoid and the one under the instrument panel. So once I removed this solenoid and cleaned up all the wires/posts, added some elec grease and put back together she fires right up everytime!
So thanks again for everyones help! Next up, need to bleed injectors. Never done that before, but, it ain't electrical, should be able to handle it!

Thanks,
Brian

 

[Bwar77]

Solenoid location

Hey rockdog,
The solenoid was located behind the starter, towards the cab in the engine compartment. It's bolted to the - fireWall I guess it would be? It's higher than the starter. And it's a pain 2 remove and reinstall without removing the hood! Good luck!

 

[tuf.trux]

i have the same issue and its the neutral switch on the reverser

 

[Jmbplumb]

Hey guys I just got a 510B and I ran it all day Saturday , ran mint , in fact I love it ! Sunday am I had a temp don't to 27f I wanted to try starting it with out block heater , it turned over fine at first try second try farted , third try , I lost everything no power in cab at all , i tested the battery's 12.7 volts both of them individually , then did a load test was fine , then put a spare battery to jump the starter sounded like the starter was engaged but wouldn't turn it over , the hard part for me was understanding why I lost everything in the cab turn the key to on position no wipers no lights nothing at all