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Fiat 70CI. Repairs, modifications and stories.
- Thread starter nutwood
- Start date
Garrie Denny
Senior Member
What do call orifice plates, is that the lock down plate with two bolt holes that keeps the injector held into the head ?
Im not sure what the absolute correct terminology is but: it is the small thin cast plate that sits inside the injector down near the nozzle. It has several small stainless steel rods inserted into it (never lose these as they are like diamonds, they dont make them anymore). Someone might know why but this cast plate disintegrated into a thousand peices on me, im guessing the metal just fatigues over 60 years. The plate and the rods also wear. Apparently the injectors for the 311, 312 & 351 series and the 411, 412 & 451 series are the same so I was able to get out of a bind. For anyone that has these injector spares they are like gold.
If anyone has or knows of any other 311, 312, 351 series tractor/dozers I'd be interested in getting in touch. Im guessing there's not many out there.
If anyone has or knows of any other 311, 312, 351 series tractor/dozers I'd be interested in getting in touch. Im guessing there's not many out there.
Garrie Denny
Senior Member
Tarpon 140. If you do need to buy them make sure your sitting when you ask the price, youd think they were cast gold .
Jeembawb
Well-Known Member
Good work tarpon140 - I missed the last few months of updates somehow. Love all the pics, thanks. Gonna have to do steering clutches and brakes on my 451 too soon so is good to see what I might be in for. What paint did u use? Enamel bareco? Did u get bits for your injectors? You probably have worked out that some stuff may be available for 455 injectors which are the same as 451 but are different because they are the modified ones so 455 can go into 451 so I guess from what u have listed they should fit yours too. There is a chance that an old school diesel shop that specialised in Bosch could have things like them little flying saucer plates from similar injectors. Stuff like old vw & merc injectors are very similar. What colour is the smoke?
Jimbob
Jimbob
Gday Jimbob
First four litres I got off ebay and although looked a bit dodgy it actually came out of the gun nicely and covered well. This lot unfortunately ran out so we went to a colour match paint shop to get the rest. Although this did the job (was meant to be quality auto paint) it wasn't as good as the stuff I bought off ebay.
Unfortunately I haven't been able to work her much yet so still find out if it is oil or diesel. I reckon it is white smoke but others reckon it is darker. Whether it uses oil or not will be the true test.
CC
First four litres I got off ebay and although looked a bit dodgy it actually came out of the gun nicely and covered well. This lot unfortunately ran out so we went to a colour match paint shop to get the rest. Although this did the job (was meant to be quality auto paint) it wasn't as good as the stuff I bought off ebay.
Unfortunately I haven't been able to work her much yet so still find out if it is oil or diesel. I reckon it is white smoke but others reckon it is darker. Whether it uses oil or not will be the true test.
CC
Jeembawb
Well-Known Member
Re the smoke - have u checked the diaphragm at the end of the injector pump? They r supposed to get a drop of oil periodically to keep it supple & prevent perishing. One of the symptoms of a perished diaphragm is white smoke. Others can be overevving (governor issues) and running on as well as waaay too much fuel going in. Pretty easy to check, take the cover off & look see. If u need one let me know, I found them at a diesel shop in Vic for $20 ea +. Tis just a Bosch type A pump, same as Kiki copies on say MQ patrols and many others.
I was getting all my old fiat orange paint at an industrial paint shop till the shop disappeared, now I have some bareco that I haven't used yet - hopefully is the same colour.
Just had another look at your pics to re realise yours is a 3xx & not a 4xx engine which probably shares some similarities even though the pump is on the opposite side. It looks to have a vacuum diaphragm for the governor on the back of the pump and if it is a Bosch pump (will say on the plate under license Bosch etc) then I would say it is the same p/n of diaphragm I was talking about. Could also be worth checking for vacuum leaks from the steel pipe work etc (block up any leaks with old fiat orange jam :Cowboy) would cause similar symptoms I reckon.
Jimbob
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Evening Jimbob and thanks for the note.
Funny you say that as we were discussing the problem today and the injector pump diaphragm came up. I suggested that surely the injector pump shop would have checked the diaphragm given I paid them a small fortune to service it. I was assured that dollars spent does always equate to service outcomes. Anyway I wont say too much until we check the diaphragm.
There is a lever/button on the machine that you use to inject diesel into the chamber on cold mornings. This is not working so I'm guessing there is a relationship with that and the smoke. I hope so anyway as it is a small fix.
Yes the injector pump is a Bosch.
The 311, 312, 351c series came with two different motors. I forget the motor numbers but the service manual I have and this machine have different motors. This was the first series Fiat released with a diesel engine (gasoline prior).
Would you believe today we discovered air pressure back in the radiator (problem that started the rebuild). Need to pull the head off again and try and solve the problem. I hope it is a faulty head gasket but have a bad feeling it could be more major. As always suggestions would be appreciated.
Cameron C
Funny you say that as we were discussing the problem today and the injector pump diaphragm came up. I suggested that surely the injector pump shop would have checked the diaphragm given I paid them a small fortune to service it. I was assured that dollars spent does always equate to service outcomes. Anyway I wont say too much until we check the diaphragm.
There is a lever/button on the machine that you use to inject diesel into the chamber on cold mornings. This is not working so I'm guessing there is a relationship with that and the smoke. I hope so anyway as it is a small fix.
Yes the injector pump is a Bosch.
The 311, 312, 351c series came with two different motors. I forget the motor numbers but the service manual I have and this machine have different motors. This was the first series Fiat released with a diesel engine (gasoline prior).
Would you believe today we discovered air pressure back in the radiator (problem that started the rebuild). Need to pull the head off again and try and solve the problem. I hope it is a faulty head gasket but have a bad feeling it could be more major. As always suggestions would be appreciated.
Cameron C
Jeembawb
Well-Known Member
Gidday Cameron
Always hard when a lot of engine parts have been worked on and then a problem appears that could be caused by many things - where to start. The people that would have had 1st hand experience with some of this gear back in the day think that google is something you do down at a nudist beach or something so they are no help unless you know someone? I have had some success using google chrome to search for stuff on these old fiats, but with the auto translation bit turned on, and you can sort of make out most of the stuff from some Italian and French forums.
If the smoke is from one injector you maay be able to notice a difference if you crack one injector at a time or you could rip em out and get em rechecked fairly cheaply. If the pump has been done then the diaphragm should be done - u could ask them nicely straight up and how the answer goes will tell u if u need to check it (still could be a vacuum leak or issue with the Venturi throttle body tho). Most fiat experience will say to replace head studs for the full length wet liner ones that go right down to the bottom - these are different though and not sure if they should be replaced as a mater of course. Hope it's not too serious for the water pressurisation issue - I like to use vht copper coat on all my head gaskets I had a Perkins 4-236 in a backhoe that took a couple of goes to get right (I got the head done & used vht copper coat the 2nd time tho) so if yours is flat both sides with no cracks or porosity and the studs are holding correct tension it should be all good up top. Are the liners removable and if so were they bumped and therefore the seal could be shot down below (hard to say if water goes toward the crankcase or the crankcase pressure goes toward the water?)?
Can be a bit hard to nut out some of these issues on the old gear - seal n go is one of the "mechanic in a bottle" magic potions, that old timers that do cylinder heads all the way into retirement, say that it is one that will fix small sealing issues permanently. Maybe you have more than one issue tho.
Good luck
Jimbob
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Queenslander
Senior Member
I have a 14C which very rarely needs the cold start button, however one morning after I did use it , the tractor was blowing smoke.
Eventually discovered that the button hadn't retracted after starting, it had seized from lack of use.
Extra fuel did wonders for performance though.
Cheers, Greg
The bloke who works on the machine while I'm doing my day job pulled the head off yesterday. The pre com chambers virtually fell out in his hand!!! When we had the head serviced as part of the re build they couldn't find original pre coms so the fitter machined down some out of a 4 series (I think). Anyway apparently they did not do the job. Too much fuel and too much heat wrecked them in about an hour of running. Not too sure where to from here but I think it is going to take some detective work. I also figure this is related to the smoke but I'm not 100% convinced. The smoke was there immediately we started her after the rebuild.
Has anyone had experience with pre com chambers?
Wish I had taken photos of the originals as they were completely shot and not something you see every day.
Back to the drawing board for now.
Has anyone had experience with pre com chambers?
Wish I had taken photos of the originals as they were completely shot and not something you see every day.
Back to the drawing board for now.
Jimbob I didn't answer some of your questions so will attempt to do so here.
1. If the smoke is from one injector (smoke across all four cylinders)
2. If the pump has been done then the diaphragm should be done (OK will fix pre coms first then come back to this if required.)
3. Still could be a vacuum leak or issue with the Venturi throttle body tho. (OK)
4. Most fiat experience will say to replace head studs for the full length wet liner ones that go right down to the bottom - these are different though and not sure if they should be replaced as a mater of course. (I was told its only newer motors that have torque and twist (not correct description but hope you know what I mean) head studs that need to be replaced. What is your view?)
4. Hope it's not too serious for the water pressurisation issue (The new head gasket has a burn hole through it. I read today this is from the metal getting too hot, then expanding and thinning the head gasket to the point it just burns out. This makes sense to me given the pre com issues)
5. Are the liners removable (Liners were replaced with new ones)
CC
1. If the smoke is from one injector (smoke across all four cylinders)
2. If the pump has been done then the diaphragm should be done (OK will fix pre coms first then come back to this if required.)
3. Still could be a vacuum leak or issue with the Venturi throttle body tho. (OK)
4. Most fiat experience will say to replace head studs for the full length wet liner ones that go right down to the bottom - these are different though and not sure if they should be replaced as a mater of course. (I was told its only newer motors that have torque and twist (not correct description but hope you know what I mean) head studs that need to be replaced. What is your view?)
4. Hope it's not too serious for the water pressurisation issue (The new head gasket has a burn hole through it. I read today this is from the metal getting too hot, then expanding and thinning the head gasket to the point it just burns out. This makes sense to me given the pre com issues)
5. Are the liners removable (Liners were replaced with new ones)
CC
Garrie Denny
Senior Member
I know exactly where yore coming from,the push button on my 70CI keeps the starter engadged if rain has got into the rubber covering and keeps the starter spinning without spraying with possums **** (Spray-Lube )
Garrie Denny
Senior Member
P1ss is not a profane word ,tell it like it comes out from every thing on this planet,drink water=****,I am totally over this special , got to be cowering to might be offended people,if they don't like it P1ss OFF
Reading your last post(257) it would appear that you have not become any smarter.
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Garrie Denny
Senior Member
This coming from a self proffesed expert I assume.
Jeembawb
Well-Known Member
Lest we not forget - and make the last post, the last post
Jeembawb
Jeembawb