Diesel vs the environment

[CEwriter]

Some fairly aggressive commentary here http://www.constructionequipment.co...k_header_id=6421465&articleid=CA6421465#60003 -- from an equipment type who has obviously got strong opinions about environmental regulation.

It comes in response to a story that I thought was simply reporting the effects industry has experienced with a regulated change in fuel. Hadn't intended to come across as either for or against EPA's requirement for ULSD.

What do y'all think, specifically of those pro-environmental regulations that have changed equipment and its consumables?

Have you had low-temp fuel-jelling problems associated with the reduction of diesel-fuel sulfur to ULSD levels (15 ppm -- only widely available as of about June 2006)?

What's a BC III?

Do I seem like a tree hugger in this story (NOT "do-these-jeans-make-me-look-fat" hyper sensitivity. I intended to be objective with this story and if I failed, I need to know about it so I can do a better job next time)?

Thanks,

Larry

 

[Cat420]

I thought it was a good article:beatsme

I will add that it is tough to see any truth for both sides of the whole environmental/GW debate. There are way to many people that have latched on to one side of things with an unshakeable certainty about what they "know". One thing that is clear is that most people don't "know" much of anything. Legitimate science is nearly impossible to separate from funding by one lobby of another with undue influence. The moderate position seems to hiding under the table so as to avoid being flailed from the two extreme positions.

I see it this way. We need to find a way to take a good, honest look at things, no matter our fear of the outcome. Sure it would be a short term boost to industry to remove some standards to keep up with China, but long term I do not envy the devastation that China will see from its complete disregard for pollution and such. The environmental nuts don't help us or their cause with their endless regulations for sometimes nonsense reasons, but you know full well that without some of those regulations, the big impersonal companies would utterly destroy the planet to make a buck. Will we ever see an end to the vocal morons spreading half-truths or to the head in the sand stubborn people, who think everyone just wants to take their toys away and make true honest progress? Who knows.

 

[woberlin]

You certainly don't come across as a tree hugger at all to me. It seems as though you are just reporting the facts concerning the law and it's implementation. I have personally not had any problems running the ulsd fuel at all. Like it or not, it's the law, and it will probably get more stringent in the future. The BCIII, I think is a big cam cummins truck engine, although I have only ever heard of a BCI, & BCII.

 

[Truckie]

No you do not come off as a tree hugger and I sure in the he77 can tell you I’m not.:spaz
I don’t like the new ULSD at all. As soon as the temps hit the single digits all we had was problems with our equipment and trucks. I have noticed a bit less power in equipment and in the trucks.
I do believe we have gone over board with changing the fuel and the engines. The first changes that were made in the early to mid 90’s with engines was enough. Bust as soon as we made the first changes they were changing things again and then again. Give the first changes a chance to work before you start changing the changes. You ask me going to 500 ppm was bead enough but going from 500 to 15 is just ridicules. 500 ppm sulfur worked just fine. This 15ppm just plain sucks.:cussing

 

[Dozerboy]

X4
I'm a member of a large diesel forum and this winter every other post was about gelling fuel almost. There where guys triple treating there fuel gelling, I'm glad I live in a warm climate.

 

[2109 Stang]

There is also a big cam IV to me all these big cams were the best diesel engine ever made for big trucks ,too bad you can have em on a new truck anymore.

 

[jmac]

I live in a cold climate; the temp was below 20 for weeks on end. Every time I had to start my dump truck I had a problem. Plug it in no help. The fuel would gel. Put anti gel (911) no help. I had to change the filters and warm truck up to get it started. This has happened to everyone that I spoke to that did not have heated fuel filters. And some with heated fuel filters and 911 anti gel in the tank.

If your story was to report the facts and be fair and balanced the gel problems that everyone had this winter in cold climates should have been mentioned.
Like Bill O’Rilley would say “the spin stops hereâ€!

 

[Mike J]

I thought the article was good but it should have mentioned some of the cold weather gelling problems since it did list people that didn't have any probs.

Our class took a trip to Penn State's main campus and the head professor of the fuel research lab showed us around. He was saying that the gelling was due to the refining process to get the sulfur out of the fuel. I think it was the temperature that they process it at is different and it leads to more pariffin being left in the fuel. I think he said it should not be a permanent thing, just until the refineries figure out an addive package that works well.
I do think it stinks that they didn't get the fuel gelling temp low enough before they started selling ulsd.

I don't see a problem with reducing pollution. From what I understand companies basicaly put a particulate filter in the exhaust and added egr systems to lower the NOx, along with with a method of getting fuel into the exhaust stream to clean up the particulate filter if it begins to get clogged from not reaching high enough temps. (the fuel starts burning in the filter to get it good and hot and burn off the deposits) This to me doesn't seem like some major change to the diesel engine, more of just an add on. Once the particulate emissions and the NOx are kept low in a diesel, it is a good clean and efficient way of producing power. People mostly don't like to change but if we don't do things now to try to avoid pollution where we can then what are we leaving for kids 100 or 200 years from now? If a truck costs more money to buy now because its has extra emissions stuff on it then thats just a cost of doing business like anything else.

 

[surfer-joe]

Gelling in diesel fuel isn't anything new during cold weather, and I don't think ULSD is going to behave in much different fashion than from what we used to consider regular diesel. Removal of the sulphur is likely a very good thing from an air pollution standpoint. From my own experience in very cold weather over the last 45 years however, all the additives in the world are not going to help anyone much if they insist on running straight #2 diesel fuel. Once you get that stuff below about 22 degrees F., you will have problems, no bull! Those that are using bio-diesel in cold weather have been and will continue to experience problems because of the inherent qualities in the bio part of the fuel, it just doesn't like cold weather, though some folks I know seem to do OK with it.

That said, there are things you can and should do to protect your equipment. Do proper PM maintenance on your equipment fuel systems and your fuel storage and pumping/filtering devices. Do this BEFORE cold weather hits, it's way too late once the cold hits the fan so to speak! Keep a close eye on your bulk storage if you use it. Condensation creeps up fast in humid climates in late summer and fall. If you haven't cleaned all the crap out your tanks, early fall is the time to do it. Make sure all fuel is filtered before being installed into your equipment. Treat the fuel with a good additive to keep water contamination in check. Forget about additives that promise to prevent wax problems, they are a waste of your money and time. Test your fuel with regular fuel samples to a lab. This will always alert you to bad fuel and once you learn of it, act fast! Keep in mind that heated filters can help, but if you have long fuel runs from tank to pump to filter, you can have gelled fuel nearly anywhere in those lines, but especially at connectors and elbows.

Watch the weather. When the bad guy on TV says it's going to get real cold, trust him. Get some @1 diesel or Kerosene blended in your fuel, and make sure you run your equipment a bit with the blended fuel. Yep, it's a bit more expensive, but it's not near as bad as telling the production types that they have to send everyone home for the day because your mechanics are going to have to spend several hours cleaning out frozen fuel systems and changing filters. Not to mention putting out the fires they light off trying to thaw out fuel lines and fittings. Melted air brakes hoses, burnt electrical harnesses and lots of other damage occurs when this happens.

To many times, bad weather rolls in after you have shut your iron down on Friday for the weekend. Then Monday rolls around and everything is froze all to hell because the temp went from 60 above to 20 below on Sunday. Careful preparation before the end of the shift on Friday will allow you to start and operate on Monday. There have been times when I had equipment idling 24/7 because of the cold -- with a mechanic standing by all night checking for problems. Cold weather makes everything harder, but once you learn to live with it, life goes on.

But, I digress. Environmentally, ULSD is a good thing and we will learn to live with it as manufacturers and end users figure out how it works and tricks to keep it flowing. We did this with the earlier low-sulphur diesel and it took about a year to come to grips with it. ULSD is running cleaner than many gas powered vehicles now a days, but there are also the added components now to take care of, the particulate traps and catalytic converters and such. They require close inspection and maintenance just like the rest of the systems on your rig. The jury is still out as far as I am concerned as to their total effectiveness vs cost.

Even an old dirt stiff like me can learn how to cope with new fuels and iron, once I'm convinced that putting up with the new stuff will be a good thing. Not that any of us have much choice or say in the matter these days. Politicians and lobbyists make the rules, sometimes without much good reason, and the rest of us struggle to keep up. It is probably better to be pro-active when changes come down the pike regarding fuels as I haven't seen much rollback on any new regulations or specs. Good article Larry.

 

[Dozerboy]

I can guarantee ULSD does gel faster at truck stops I have seen warnings that the get point of it is 10* higher. Adding #1 ain't the answer because of it lack of lubricity on top of the lack of lubricity of ULSD. Of cores gelling isn't new, but when you’re doing every trick you know of to keep it from happening and still can't guarantee you can keep your diesels running what then? The leaf lickers seem to have every gullible person by the balls with this GWing BS. I have no problem with watching out for the environment but baby steps.

 

[jmac]

Surfer-Joe you live in Arizona. : I bet you had no problems. I have to make a living in Upstate NY and I can tell that doing what I had to do this winter was not normal and cost me atleast $2k or more from not being able to use my truck when I had to. I want to do more conservation for all of us, but I think that the people that make these new rules would of researched this better.

 

[DPete]

I feel for you guys in cold climates, I don't have that problem but can imagine the cost in downtime not being able to get started. The industry is going through an adjustment period similar to the auto industry in the late 70's and 80's. Emission standards are here to stay hopefully the research & development phase won't last as long as it did in the autos. We finally got clean running fuel injected cars with good horsepower, hopefully the diesel engines will be the same. Good luck to all of you I'm in the same boat. We are 15ppm for off road and marine in Ca. DP

 

[surfer-joe]

Fuel gelling and environmental issues

Arizona is only the latest stop in my career and I haven't been here long. I grew up in northern Michigan and have worked in the Arctic, Rocky Mountains from Montana south, plus many other places. Dealing with cold weather fuel and other problems is completely normal for me.

But you fellas may have a point with the ULSD being even more problematical than usual. I've read of some other guys up east having what they believe are more gelling problems this winter with ULSD, but are they? Or are the problems much the same as before with the only difference being the ULSD?

I've not read or heard anything official that says the wax in ULSD freezes out at a higher temp than normal #2. Sulphur as a compound may ad some freeze point difference and maybe more importantly, some additional lubricity, but I don't think the last is important enough not to run blended or straight #1 when you have to. Even down to about 20 below zero, a 50/50 blend works fairly well, and you still a fair amount of lubricity with that. At best in the northeast and Midwest, it would only be for a couple of weeks to a month or so. If your supplier says you can run with it, go for it. If not, back to your dealer and engine manufacturer for advice and possible warranty consideration.

My experience with ULSD is all warmer climate at this point and so far, there have been no issues for me. None the less, the items I pointed out in my other post may help you deal with it and there are no doubt a lot more things you can do to make it easier on yourselves. There IS no doubt that cold weather operations cost more. That's simply part of the game and you get on with it or get out. The choice of how to prepare, what to use for hardware, and how to operate in cold weather is up to you and how much grief you want to endure if you don't do anything or prepare poorly.

One thing for sure, as I said before, those of us that have to use government mandated fuels have little other option whether it be reformulated gasoline's or diesel, including bio-diesel now of course. We, along with engine and equipment manufacturers must comply. That means learning how to use the stuff efficiently with every trick we can think of whilst staying within environmental and regulatory boundaries. Take heart, spring is here!

 

[jmac]

Surfer-Joe, I here you. But there is a big difference in these two situations. Your comments are in a nut shell "find a way to deal with it because it is not going away". I agree with that.
Consider this. I own the truck, I own the fuel, I own the company so just deal with it means that besides the PITA factor and the money to accomplish this "just deal with it" comes out of my pocket and affects my bottom line. So my cost of doing business has gone up again in many ways because of this new fuel, and as you know most businesses don't need any more increases in that.
Should I sacrafice for the enviroment, absolutly, I just get to give more than the average Joe.

 

[mtb345]

bio-diesel

i am new to this forum and i wanted to knowif there is any info on bio-diesel in this industry , i know that there are a lot of french fries oil going into grease pits instead of a d8 tank i seen a piece of info on tv [dirty jobs]

 

[T Red]

I'm by no means a tree hugger and I have yet to be convenced the earth is warming up. Historical data states that it has been this warm before.

But I do have concerns for my children. I do not think our generation will see the effects of pullution, but I do think our children and grandchildren will. I'm 39 and have two kids, no grandchildren.

Common sense says that if we continue to populate the earth with people that drive polluting cars we will have a problem at some point. It may be a century away I don't know.

I have a BC III in a truck and love it. I know it pollutes but nothing compared to the cars people in china or some of the other small countries are.

The US is ahead of many countries on pollution. I understand the 2010 power stroke will exhaust cleaner air than it takes in, somehow using urea injection. Part of the next federal emission requirements. I probably won't be able to afford one, but its nice to know we are headed in a clean direction and if it costs a little more I'll do it for my kids.

mtb345 I'm sure the fry oil is going to be recycled into biodiesel or burnt in a factory for fuel. I have a friend that mixes all his off road with 20% bio. He buys truck load quantities that he mixes. He believes it is good for his equipment.

 

[Countryboy]

i am new to this forum and i wanted to knowif there is any info on bio-diesel in this industry , i know that there are a lot of french fries oil going into grease pits instead of a d8 tank i seen a piece of info on tv [dirty jobs]

Welcome to HEF mtb345! :drinkup

In reference to info on bio-diesel, there are many, many writeups about bio-diesel on the internet. Just type in "bio-diesel" into your prefered search engine and you should find what you're looking for. Construction Equipment has done several informative articles on the subject too. :thumbsup