D9G or D9H - What do you recommend?

[ol'stonebreaker]

Jim, I know you don't have deep pockets, but would it be better to purchase an excavator to sort out the ore from the waste and have a D-7 to push the waste away. Or just an excavator and a good strong dump truck to haul either. I just went back and re-read your first post. Could the mill follow the excavator and use the dump truck or a small mine style haul truck such as a Cat 769 to haul away waste? this way you could stockpile the waste along all 4 sides of the claim leaving a notch for entry and exit and having it handy for reclamation.
Mike

 

[Passionhawk1]

Dear Mike:

Our minds must be in sync. While I was reading and responding to your post, it occurred to me that instead of a wheel loader (which goes through tires on the rocks), why not an excavator and a dozer? Selectively pick the veins with the excavator and push off the over-burden with a Cat. Cats without rippers are extremely inexpensive when compared to ones with rippers.

What I have: A portable rock crusher on skids, a mill on skids, 3 short conveyors and a 4x8 shaker table I'm putting inside an office-trailer. I can easily move these around at will so they are always closely adjacent to where I am working the ground. By "close" I mean within 100 or so feet. I also have a small 8-yard dump truck and a small loader to feed the crusher.

The property consists of several small hills shot-through with quartz. That is the gold source in lode form. Below that are a few gentle sloping and flat acres with alluvial. The alluvial has to be scrapped down a few inches at a time and that's where a ripper comes in handy to loosen the cemented conglomerates going down to the bedrock. In ratio, the small hills are 90% and the alluvial is 10%. All I'd need do is figure out how to scrape (loosen) the conglomerates so I could push off a few inches at a time with a dozer.

You are correct. Deep pockets I have not. I am 70 years of age and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on equipment would be foolhardy. You have really given me something to think about. Thanks you, Mike.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell

 

[ol'stonebreaker]

You're welcome, Jim,!! Someone correct me If I'm wrong but I believe they sell single shank ripper attachments that attach to the back of the excavator bucket so you can curl the bucket all the way in and use the ripper. If you can keep the crusher within 100' of the trackhoe the little loader can pissant it that far eliminating the need for the dump truck. If you have a cat it can push the remainder of the ore pile into the loader bucket JMHO,
Mike

 

[CDUB]

I would get an excavator with a quick coupler and switch from ripper to bucket. Those bucket mounted rippers are a joke. A coupler wouldn't add much to the purchase price of a hoe and a ripper tooth costs about 3 or 4 thousand.
Ripping with a hoe may not be as productive as a large dozer, but it will cost far less.

 

[Passionhawk1]

You're welcome, Jim,!! Someone correct me If I'm wrong but I believe they sell single shank ripper attachments that attach to the back of the excavator bucket so you can curl the bucket all the way in and use the ripper. If you can keep the crusher within 100' of the trackhoe the little loader can pissant it that far eliminating the need for the dump truck. If you have a cat it can push the remainder of the ore pile into the loader bucket JMHO,
Mike

I'm with you on the equipment compliment as far as what is and is not needed. I did find a reasonably-priced D9G close-by that is in good mechanical condition. It looks as ugly as an old-man's butt - but, it has a 4-barrel ripper and an SU blade. I backed away from the unit because (1) I've learned from people with experience that the rippers were not all that good on the D9G machines and (2) it's apparently one thirsty bugger. However . . . (however being one of life's great eraser words that takes everything away that was said before it) . . . however, with an excavator working and doing the "picking", I would not be doing as much ripping and would not be so completely dependent upon a dozer. Therefore, the D9G would more be used for moving overburden to the perimeter of the work area - and the D9G is still a good, stout machine that can move a load. Now, if I had to use it 8 hours a day, then the fuel consumption would be a deal-killer.

Now, I guess I'll have to jump to another forum and learn about excavators. Too bad because the folks on this forum have been nothing short of brilliant and extremely helpful.

I've seen excavators priced from the ground clear up to the stars. There are some local units for sale. They are older Kobelco units. So for me, that introduces a new problem. I wouldn't know a "quick coupler" if it was stuffed half-way up my backside. Also, buckets that swivel seem to be very useful and I'm not sure the older Kobelco machines are so equipped. I just don't know.

Another issue is size. How large must the excavator be? Is size measured by the weight of the machine or by the breakout force of the bucket? How much is enough? Obviously one of the little mini-excavators is far too small and I sure as heck don't want to purchase a PH shovel with a bucket that will easily hold 15 men and a St. Bernard. So my education continues.

Thanks so much, Mike,
Jim Mitchell

 

[Passionhawk1]

I would get an excavator with a quick coupler and switch from ripper to bucket. Those bucket mounted rippers are a joke. A coupler wouldn't add much to the purchase price of a hoe and a ripper tooth costs about 3 or 4 thousand.
Ripping with a hoe may not be as productive as a large dozer, but it will cost far less.

I'm thinking that if I am exceedingly fortuitous, I can get a used excavator and a used dozer and use the best of both worlds. I couldn't do that if I were purchasing new or nearly new. I've got to scout-around for a good local mechanic as well as someone who knows excavators so that they can judge potential from junk.

Thanks for your comments!

 

[StanRUS]

I'm thinking that if I am exceedingly fortuitous, I can get a used excavator and a used dozer and use the best of both worlds. I couldn't do that if I were purchasing new or nearly new. I've got to scout-around for a good local mechanic as well as someone who knows excavators so that they can judge potential from junk.

Thanks for your comments!

Hi Jim,
The D9G, I wouldn't be overly concerned about the ripper mounting per your job description. The machines we've had problems with were mining rocks 8hrs per day! Visually check the ripper mounting brackets too see if oil is dripping between the tractor case and bracket, if oil is dripping that indicates that the internal welded in threaded steel block is cracked. Also fire up the machine and check if both steering clutches will release, pull both clutches, apply both brakes and shift the machine into 3rd gear. If the clutches won't release that indicates that the internal teflon seals are worn and most times the pistons and bevel gear shaft bearing retainers.

If you could find a knowledgeable mechanic in the area that would definitely be a big plus before purchasing used equipment!

Regards Stan

 

[CDUB]

I don't think you need to go to another forum to get educated about excavators. Most of the people commenting here are very knowledgeable on them as well.
Yes they are classed by weight of the machine, and just like anything, bigger is better.
A quick coupler allows you to change attachments from the seat of the machine. So for example, you can have a ripper tooth on to rip the material and change to bucket in about 10 seconds to dig the ripped material. Look at some machines online and you will soon see one. They are very common attachments these days.

 

[Passionhawk1]

Hi Jim,
The D9G, I wouldn't be overly concerned about the ripper mounting per your job description. The machines we've had problems with were mining rocks 8hrs per day! Visually check the ripper mounting brackets too see if oil is dripping between the tractor case and bracket, if oil is dripping that indicates that the internal welded in threaded steel block is cracked. Also fire up the machine and check if both steering clutches will release, pull both clutches, apply both brakes and shift the machine into 3rd gear. If the clutches won't release that indicates that the internal teflon seals are worn and most times the pistons and bevel gear shaft bearing retainers.

If you could find a knowledgeable mechanic in the area that would definitely be a big plus before purchasing used equipment!

Regards Stan

So Stan, I'm going to repeat what you said, in my language, so we know that I truly understand.

The D9G has a 4-barrel ripper. Big sucker. Big diameter hydraulics. Where the entire ripper assembly attaches to the rear case (axle) of the tractor, I'm going to look around all the edges of the ripper attachment housing to see if i can find signs of oil seep. Now, we're not talking about where the hydraulic sleeves (4) attach but rather, around the entire ripper housing up against the tractor.

Secondly, I'm going to warm up the machine, pull back both clutches (frictions), apply the brakes and then shift from neutral into 3rd gear. With the frictions pulled back, the tractor should not move. Now, as I move the clutches forward and come off the brakes, I want to see if the clutches will engage and move the tractor. Is that correct? I will obviously do the same test in reverse when the tractor is moving. I will disengage the clutches and apply brakes to see if the machine will stop moving.

I put an ad in the local paper looking for an experienced Cat mechanic in the area of the mine. I'm also thinking that I need not screw around with my limited knowledge of the larger Cats. I will look for an experienced operator and pay him to access the machine before I make the purchase.

I'm really excited about the idea of combining a dozer with an excavator. Some of these veins are small. An excavator can do a much better job of picking apart the areas of mineralization. Moreover, with two machines, I can share the workload and keep from driving either machine into the ground.

Thanks so much for your advice, Stan,
Jim Mitchell

I found an old used Kobelco SK330 LC. Roughly 82,000 pounds, a 238 Mitsubishi with a turbo. Big machine and it's not thrashed. Normal wear and tear.

 

[Passionhawk1]

I don't think you need to go to another forum to get educated about excavators. Most of the people commenting here are very knowledgeable on them as well.
Yes they are classed by weight of the machine, and just like anything, bigger is better.
A quick coupler allows you to change attachments from the seat of the machine. So for example, you can have a ripper tooth on to rip the material and change to bucket in about 10 seconds to dig the ripped material. Look at some machines online and you will soon see one. They are very common attachments these days.

Well, to be perfectly honest, everyone here has brought me out of the fog with good advice, links to information and good, solid suggestions. I'm with you. I don't think I could find a group of people better educated or more sincere than I have found here.

So you say bigger is better. There are machines starting around 28,000 pounds up through 80,000 pounds and some even bigger than that. I assume when you say bigger that you mean machines that range between 35,000-75,000 pounds.

Is there a reason why buyers don't like the really larger machines? Too heavy? Too bulky on the job site? Too hard to move? It seems the smaller machines are actually higher priced and seemingly, more in demand. Is that because a smaller machine is easier to use on a job site?

So will a quick-coupler fit onto all excavator machines or is it a newer attachment intended for machines 10-years old and less? I can sure see the benefit.

What about a thumb? Are all machines equipped with the controls to operate a thumb with a bucket?

CDUB, thank you for the information. Dang! I want to get out there and move some dirt!

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell

 

[CDUB]

All the factors you listed are reasons limiting the size of a machine someone may want to buy. They don't apply in your case. The only thing I see that would limit the size of machine you would want is how much production you need. I wouldn't look at anything smaller that an 80,000 lb. machine. If you are buying anything other than Cat I would check out the local dealer and check on parts availability. I know that parts can be very hard to source on some older excavators.
Yes a quick coupler can be fit on any excavator. They are more common on newer machines because they have gotten more popular in the last 10-15 years.
Not all excavators have auxiliary hydraulics to operate a thumb. They can be added, but I'm not sure what it would cost.

 

[Passionhawk1]

Well, to be perfectly honest, everyone here has brought me out of the fog with good advice, links to information and good, solid suggestions. I'm with you. I don't think I could find a group of people better educated or more sincere than I have found here.

So you say bigger is better. There are machines starting around 28,000 pounds up through 80,000 pounds and some even bigger than that. I assume when you say bigger that you mean machines that range between 35,000-75,000 pounds.

Is there a reason why buyers don't like the really larger machines? Too heavy? Too bulky on the job site? Too hard to move? It seems the smaller machines are actually higher priced and seemingly, more in demand. Is that because a smaller machine is easier to use on a job site?

So will a quick-coupler fit onto all excavator machines or is it a newer attachment intended for machines 10-years old and less? I can sure see the benefit.

What about a thumb? Are all machines equipped with the controls to operate a thumb with a bucket?

CDUB, thank you for the information. Dang! I want to get out there and move some dirt!

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell

All the factors you listed are reasons limiting the size of a machine someone may want to buy. They don't apply in your case. The only thing I see that would limit the size of machine you would want is how much production you need. I wouldn't look at anything smaller that an 80,000 lb. machine. If you are buying anything other than Cat I would check out the local dealer and check on parts availability. I know that parts can be very hard to source on some older excavators.
Yes a quick coupler can be fit on any excavator. They are more common on newer machines because they have gotten more popular in the last 10-15 years.
Not all excavators have auxiliary hydraulics to operate a thumb. They can be added, but I'm not sure what it would cost.

So I found several excavators with two excavators close-bye. A 1999 Kobelco 330 LC and a 1998 Cat 345B. The Cat's fuel tank is almost 200 gallons. At approximately 4200 feet elevation, I wonder how much fuel the Cat 345B would burn per hour? It's a big machine at almost 99,000 pounds soaking wet. I can't imagine needing a larger machine for mining and digging in rocks.

 

[Desertwheeler]

That 345 will move a lot of material. Plus parts would be easy to source. Probably easier to find a quick coupler for it if you had to in the used market.


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[nicky 68a]

Jim.
I've operated quite a few D9G to D9N tractors and have yet to experience major problems with bevel casings and ripper mounts.
I also recall a newish D10N that cracked the casing.
You won't find an old 9G/H without a few drops of oil around the back end.Some may have been cracked in their younger days and welded back up.
This doesn't mean they won't do your job.
As for fuel burn on the D9..........well,it moves a lot for what it drinks,therefore may only be needed for a few hours a day.
My preference for your job would be an old D8H/K with a nice,simple Kelly ripper.
Get a decent 40 odd ton excavator with a ripper attachment and you have the best of both worlds.
Stick to Cat and you will recoup your investment when you sell up.

 

[CDUB]

I've yelled at the computer screen more than once over the issue of fuel consumption in large machines. You aren't driving them to the corner store for a six pack. They move more material for the fuel they burn, they also move more for the time you spend doing it. There are job specific economies of scale that come into play of course, but in general your fuel cost per yard will be lower with a larger machine.

 

[nicky 68a]

I've yelled at the computer screen more than once over the issue of fuel consumption in large machines. You aren't driving them to the corner store for a six pack. They move more material for the fuel they burn, they also move more for the time you spend doing it. There are job specific economies of scale that come into play of course, but in general your fuel cost per yard will be lower with a larger machine.

Perfectly said CDUB

 

[Passionhawk1]

Jim.
I've operated quite a few D9G to D9N tractors and have yet to experience major problems with bevel casings and ripper mounts.
I also recall a newish D10N that cracked the casing.
You won't find an old 9G/H without a few drops of oil around the back end.Some may have been cracked in their younger days and welded back up.
This doesn't mean they won't do your job.
As for fuel burn on the D9..........well,it moves a lot for what it drinks,therefore may only be needed for a few hours a day.
My preference for your job would be an old D8H/K with a nice,simple Kelly ripper.
Get a decent 40 odd ton excavator with a ripper attachment and you have the best of both worlds.
Stick to Cat and you will recoup your investment when you sell up.

Hello Nicky:

I found a D8H that has a bad head gasquet. A few questions. Engines don't normally blow a head gasquet unless they are over-heated, the head is warped or both. Correct assessment? I ask because I see a lot of Cats advertised on Machinery Trader with blown head gasquets. I'm searching now for a mechanic to give me a repair quote. I know on a car engine, when a head gets warped, you either replace it with a new head or you mill down the head slightly to take out the warp. With a high-compression diesel engine, I don't think that milling is an option. So first step is to find out what size Cat engine is in the D8H and buy a new Cat head replacement.

Second question. I know that when ripping, it is critical to have control of the ripper tooth angle. A D8H has a parallelogram-style ripper that only offers a fixed-ripping position. So I had a thought. Maybe a stupid thought. The upper control bars are fixed to the rear of the Cat and fixed to the top of the ripper. Why wouldn't a person take off those upper steel bars and replace them with hydraulic cylinders? All the pressure would always be a compressive force against the tractor. There would be no tension trying to pull away from the tractor. Yes, you would have a control issue but it seems that could be somewhat easily solved with a straight charge/discharge valve, a valve control lever and hoses that would adjust the tooth angle. What seems the most difficult would be finding an appropriate place to tie into the hydraulic system. Also would be an issue is that of the hydraulic pump - if it were strong enough to allow for the addition of the extra hydraulics. Maybe this is a really stupid idea but it sure seems more reasonable than buying a new Kelly Ripper. The Cat can be purchased for the right price, it is nearby and that would be the reason for the extra effort of fixing the engine and making it work.

As for your advice about the excavator/Cat combination, I have come around to believing that would be the perfect combo. By checking the mechanical condition and buying the older equipment, it would reduce the total acquisition cost.

I've operated a back hoe, 4-1 buckets, wheeled and tracked front-end loaders, the largest New Holland skid-steer and two older Cats with frictions and a pony starter motor. That is my dirt-moving experience. I have never operated an excavator. Clearly, I will soon be learning. So now comes a troubling decision. It seems that I will operate the excavator more than the Cat. The tractor will move around the over-burden. The excavator will ("delicately") pick apart the quartz veins and the surrounding wall rock. I found a Cat 345BL that weighs a hundred-thousand pounds and burns dang-near 15 gallons per hour according to the CAT specs. Ouch! Certainly, a 345BL is large enough to dig and has sufficient bucket break-out force from what I've read. But #@%+)%@! 15 gallons an hour? Even with red, off-road diesel that's over $175 USD in a 5-hour day. Scheesh! Maybe that's just the cost of mining, aye?

I know that smaller excavators burn far less fuel - but is a small excavator really up to the task of mining? It also seems that a 345BL is not a machine that one associates with the word "delicate" or surgical with a 5-foot rock bucket! On the other hand, I know that one can pick-apart almost anything with a backhoe in a delicate manner and so perhaps one can do the same thing with a large excavator. I don't know because I've never operated one. Let's not forget, I'm not loading out eight cycling Haul Paks out of a pit in a 12-hour shift so I shouldn't have to run the excavator at full RPM. Maybe that saves a bit of fuel? The bigger machine would be welcome in those cases when the big breakout force is required.

Your advice to stick with Caterpillar products is a good one. I totally agree. One reason people hate big excavators and larger Cats is the hefty transportation cost. In all cases, once this equipment is on site, we won't be transporting it ever again . . . . . I hope. Your comments or any others who know excavators and the D8H Cat would be appreciated.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell
DLOG FINDERS

 

[Delmer]

Correct, engines don't randomly blow head gaskets. Engines are advertised as "bad head gasket" because that sounds better than all the other stuff that's really wrong with it.

 

[Passionhawk1]

Correct, engines don't randomly blow head gaskets. Engines are advertised as "bad head gasket" because that sounds better than all the other stuff that's really wrong with it.

So Delmer, does this make any sense to you? " . . . a head gasket leak that is pressurizing the coolant." As I think on it, a leak in a head gasquet wouldn't pressurize the coolant - it would depressurize the coolant making the exhaust blow volumes of white smoke from the glycol and water mixing with the hot exhaust.

Delmer, I'm with you. I laugh at your assessment. You're absolutely spot-on. People always say, "It's just a blown head gasquet" when in fact, the problem is much deeper and more complex. Replacing a head gasquet sounds soooooooo easy, doesn't it? "Like a Sunday afternoon stroll down a summer lane." I believe that's how they once described FDS - a ladies hygiene spray.

Thanks for the comment. I'm still laughing.

Kindest Regards,
Jim Mitchell

 

[Cmark]

If you're diagnosing head gasket problems in an off-road diesel engine and coming at it from an automotive background, you're only going to get so far. The big difference is the wet cylinder liners. The liner flanges will suffer from erosion from not using the correct coolant, and early models suffer from the same problem at high hours even with good coolant. The result is what's called a "dropped" liner which relaxes the grip on the head gasket fire-ring.

It's all (usually) fixable, but if you get away with a head gasket and new/skimmed head, consider yourself lucky.