Coolant in oil pan JD6059

[rsherril]

Went to do a little road work today. Checking fluid levels and engine oil too high. No diesel smell, coolant low, drain about two gallons of coolant out of oil sump. Sure glad I always do fluid checks first thing.

Backround: Parked one month ago after plowing snow for 5 hours. Had to replace block heater first. Added coolant. Did notice a chirping noise towards the end of day. Nothing apparent when I looked around. Noted engine running a little warmer, not hot.
Did note on today's oil check that that oil was black, not the usual dark brown at 200 hrs.into last oil change.
Coolant was flushed and changed to Final Charge about 150 hours ago.
Engine is a JD 6059 with a turbo with 2900 hrs. Repowered in 1992. Radiator recored in 2004 at 1650 hrs.
Total coolant capacity 5.6 gals.
Would guess that coolant pump is in need of replacement. Gaskets, seals and impeller. Concerned about turbo bearings and other things I don't know about as well as things I think I know about. Not much of a wrench man, but am 8 years into this old grader and need advice so I can keep going awhile longer. Thanks ahead,

 

[kshansen]

Not familiar with the engine that is in this grader but my first guess would be liner seals. Orings seal the coolant at the bottom of most larger diesel engines. Try turning the engine over by hand to see if it will turn a couple complete turns. If it does turn over by hand I would say a cracked head is not that likely.

You say you checked the coolant and it was low, is the top of the radiator nice and clean? No oil film?

While a failed water pump could be the cause if it is in fact a gear driven pump, I would be looking for a weep hole on the pump. Most all gear driven water pumps have a weep hole between the oil seal and water seal of the pump to let the water from a failing pump drain to the outside and not go into the oil. Problem is that bugs and dirt can tend to plug the holes up over time. If you can find a hole poke around in it with a wire or welding rod to clean it out. If you are on real good terms with a dealer and they actually hve a pump on the shelf see if they will show you where the weep hole is located.

Next question is, how hard to drop the oil pan? If it is at all possible I would be looking at dropping it and fill up coolant again and watch for where the coolant is leaking. Best would be if you had a cooling system pressure tester or some way to put 10 to 15 psi in the coolant system. If you see nothing after about an hour try tuning by hand about 1/2 turn and watch again.

EDIT:
I took a quick look at some 6059 engines on the John Deere Part site and looked like most if not all are belt driven water pumps. So unless yours is different from all the ones I saw a leaking water pump would not get coolant in oil. Also I did see that the 6059 shown there does have oring seals at the bottom so that is a definite possibility.

 

[Delmer]

Do you have a heater in that grader? and was it working the last time you used it? How much coolant did you add, and did you check it after running for a bit?

The chirping sounds to me like a head gasket, if you're lucky. Caused by overheating possibly.

The valve cover would have soupy gunk stuck to it if the engine ran with coolant in the oil, bad news. If the coolant only leaked in after it was shut off the engine may be OK.

 

[rsherril]

You are correct about the belt driven pump. I think that I will have to drop the pan as I parked it about one inch off level and will need to make sure that the sump is clean of coolant. There is a heater in the cab and it was working as the temps were near 20 that day. I had to add about 1 gal. of coolant, but know that l spilled some because I changed out the block heater at day's end.
The oil went from dark brown to black, so I suspect that it ran with while some coolant was leaking in, but that most of what I drained out leaked in during the month it sat.
I contacted a professional wrench with a service truck and am on the board for a service call. I will pass your reply on and hope for the best, which I'm not expecting now.
Thanks much Delmer as I wasn't suspecting liner seals.

 

[kshansen]

If it is indeed a leaking head gasket the most likely path would be from a coolant passage over to the pushrod area then to the base. So there might be a good chance by just removing the valve cover you could look down that area and see a trail of the coolant. Might have to top off the radiator and put a little pressure on the system to make it visible.

Pop off the cover and upload a picture of what it looks like under there.

 

[rsherril]

A little further look at the parts and tech manuals confirms Delmer's prognosis about liner packing failure. Guess this means engine comes out. This would mean that I can tell the mechanic to come prepared to take the engine back to the shop.

I now suspect that going to a new type of engine coolant, (Final Charge), might not have been a good choice on my part as it could have caused the liner problem. Thanks again Delmer as I wasn't thinking the problem through, but just going to the best possible outcome.

 

[rsherril]

kshansen, sorry about the confusion of who is posting. Once again I'm not paying close enough attention to who is posting. I believed you once said that the JD570 is a machine well worth repairing and can be kept going for a long time. That gives me some hope as I just last year recovered my costs and was looking at actually making some wages for the hours I put on it. I suppose that can chalk it up to my continuing education program. Thank you for your encouragement and help with this.

 

[Delmer]

Don't get ahead of yourself. The valve cover is much easier to remove than the oil pan, and that's where the service guy will probably start. The oil getting black doesn't mean much to me, black is soot/carbon which is normal, water coolant would make a soupy chocolate mess, and coat the underside of the valve cover if it was running. The engine may be fine after it's fixed. If it was in good shape in 92 (new or rebuilt?) then it might not need to be pulled out even to replace the liners, IF you can get to the oil pan.

The final charge didn't cause the problem, unless it was because it was 20 years too late.

 

[kshansen]

Don't get ahead of yourself. The valve cover is much easier to remove than the oil pan, and that's where the service guy will probably start. The oil getting black doesn't mean much to me, black is soot/carbon which is normal, water coolant would make a soupy chocolate mess, and coat the underside of the valve cover if it was running. The engine may be fine after it's fixed. If it was in good shape in 92 (new or rebuilt?) then it might not need to be pulled out even to replace the liners, IF you can get to the oil pan.

The final charge didn't cause the problem, unless it was because it was 20 years too late.

Again, agree with with Delmer. With one modification not a "chocolate mess" more like a chocolate mouse! If it ran any time with water and oil mixed you will be scooping it out of the valve cover by the handful. That's why I suggested pulling the cover and posting a picture.

Black oil doesn't scare me, but then I worked on lots of old Detroits!

And yes if you can remove the oil pan in place and have a decent place for guy to work should not need to pull engine unless something worse than some failed orings are found to be the problem. Lets not worry about that till the professional gets a look at it and checks a few things.

 

[rsherril]

Well the oil cooler passed the vacuum test. Mechanic wants to bring it into the shop. Doesn't want to pull the engine on site.
Not much room to inspect liner o-rings. Thinks bearings should be inspected. The Repowered back in 92 was because of cavitation induced liner failure and I suspect that it ran awhile with coolant in the oil. I did drain all the oil and the last 1.5 gal. was clean oil that looked OK to me. No chocolate mouse any where in the pan or around the filter. Mechanic does not suspect head gasket. He did pressure test radiator and it did not hold pressure long. Humm....
Will stop by the shop today for more info and leave manuals and repair records if I'm OK with what I see.

To get it to the shop I will need to put oil in, start it and move it 1/4 mi. and load it up on transport. Should take less than 15 minutes. Advice appreciated, thanks guys.

 

[kshansen]

Well if you are going to be running it depending on the predicted temperatures in your area I might be tempted to reuse the coolant you drained out and just top off with water as needed. But that all depends on the weather and how much coolant was not saved. Also would need to make sure everyone knows if it does not have a perfect solution mix in the engine. Don't want to fill it with something that is good for the weather in the morning then have the driver or shop park it outside and have the temperature drop to -30º overnight.

As for oil I would suggest filling with new oil and a new filter. Could use some less expensive brand as long as it meet the standards for the engine, say something store brand from Tractor Supply or such. If nothing else fresh clean oil will help clean the insides up a bit for who ever is doing the job.

 

[rsherril]

Looks like I've still got coolant still coming down. Won't be moving it until Monday and temps are above freezing. Will be putting in fresh oil, but not the high dollar stuff for sure. Beginning to think that my radiator wasn't pressuring up due bad cap , (?), and maybe that led to cavitation. Oh the learning curve can be steep.

 

[kshansen]

Looks like I've still got coolant still coming down. Won't be moving it until Monday and temps are above freezing. Will be putting in fresh oil, but not the high dollar stuff for sure. Beginning to think that my radiator wasn't pressuring up due bad cap , (?), and maybe that led to cavitation. Oh the learning curve can be steep.

Well I think I'd leave the drain plug out till monday and fill with fresh oil and coolant just in time to load on truck. If there is even a slight chance temps will get close to freezing don't take a chance with not putting in antifreeze. You don't need to chance adding to the problem with a cracked block or head from ice!

 

[rsherril]

Well here it is Valintine's Day and I just got the price to move my grader about ten miles on a flat bed. Low was $100 per hour and four hours minimum, no kisses. The drain is still open an I calculated about 8 oz. of coolant per 24 hrs. for the last 38 days. So I have collected 2.25 gal. of coolant total and it's still dripping. Just a small ring of chocolate mouse in the last day of drips.
So I'm thinking that abut roading it in with fresh and cheap oil and new filter. I've separate the coolant from the oil I drained out and will put that back in the radiator for the trip. The mechanic thinks I'll be OK. Please tell me if there is some bad thinking here.

 

[rsherril]

More calculations, that would amount to about 1/3 oz per hour of drip drip drip. About 2 hrs. from start to finish.

 

[oarwhat]

If it was me I'd drain all the coolant out and fill it with water and run it. Coolant will etch the bearings water will not. Then drain the water out or don't let it freeze. Or drain the water out and put the old coolant back in but don't run it much with the coolant in there. My 2 cents

 

[kshansen]

If it was me I'd drain all the coolant out and fill it with water and run it. Coolant will etch the bearings water will not. Then drain the water out or don't let it freeze. Or drain the water out and put the old coolant back in but don't run it much with the coolant in there. My 2 cents

I might tend to agree if you can do this move on a day say in the low 40's or higher. Just make sure once it is there someone puts it inside and drains the water both from the radiator and the oil pan. Also make sure to remove plugs down low on the block to be sure no water remains caught anywhere inside the engine.

 

[grandpa]

I absolutely know nothing of this engine, but does it have seals on the injectors that may have failed? Just trying to help.

 

[Birken Vogt]

Though I have done something similar to what you describe, to get it in the right shop to tear it down. I would not recommend it.

How much is your time worth? In order to reconfigure the engine and cooling system to get it ready to road, you will be spending hours on both ends probably.

Plus if the motor gets tatered along the way, the $400 is going to look mighty cheap in the rear view mirror.

My advice if you really want to road it would be to drain and refill with water as stated by others, and put a stick in the center part of the radiator cap so it can't build pressure, and be wary of freezing after doing this. At least we are coming out of winter soon.

 

[rsherril]

This is what I needed to hear. Temps will be above 40 so I will use straight water and save the expensive coolant I salvaged for later. I had no idea that coolant could etch the bearings. Checked out his parking lot today and looks like it could use some grading so you know what I'm thinking.
Thanks, I'll keep you posted. Thanks