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Caterpillar on road trucks and engines
- Thread starter Scrub Puller
- Start date
Birken Vogt
Charter Member
I never thought of it that way, but I completely agree now that you mention it.
Junkyard
Senior Member
Of all the trucks I've had other than my old 359 Pete I've always like the KW's best. Mine were all heavy spec and did the job I needed them to the best. I ran various ages from the early 90's up to the last new one I ordered which was a 2013. Bought quite a few used ones over the years as well. Maybe they are, as the claim, worlds best.
Junkyard
Junkyard
old-iron-habit
Senior Member
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2012
- Messages
- 4,233
- Location
- Moose Lake, MN
- Occupation
- Retired Cons't. Supt./Hospitals
Do you think they will get prosecuted on this? This last round is just another chapter in a decade old war between Cat and the tax man. Been no winners but lawyers in the other battle.
On the trucks, there was quite a few Cat 4 and 5 axle dump trucks around Minnesota when they first came out. You hardly ever see one anymore. And they were priced $25,000 over a Kenworth similarly equipped when they first came out.
Last edited:
Junkyard
Senior Member
Well according to the article they paid an accounting firm $52 million to create this tax evasion plan. Not knowing details it'll be interesting to see what comes of it. To me if it cost that much to create the plan there were some high powered lawyers really reading the fine print and between the lines to skirt the laws. So I'd expect them to pay. Probably not all but a healthy amount. Probably taken care of quietly in light of the questionable press they've been getting lately.
Junkyard
Junkyard
Scrub Puller
Senior Member
Yair . . .
Thanks for your long and detailed post Karl Robbers. I find the following paragraph extremely relevant and uncomfortably close to the bone.
From your comments about Caterpillar, the company so respected by your grandfather, your first boss and who built your D7 being dead and gone I sense you feel much the same as me . . . and perhaps millions of other blokes who ran and worked on the gear when Cat indeed was king.
I'm going on an off topic ramble here but it's my thread so it doesn't matter. (grins). Folks on here a while will know my experience is limited mainly to the larger 1960's era dozers, the scrapers they pushed and the trucks that hauled them.
Back then Cat used to be the yardstick by which performance was measured and, for the most part, you paid a premium when financing a Cat. For years the small company I worked for ran Allis Chalmers dozers and it must be said in their day most Allis's performance wise were as good or better than the equivalent Cat . . . but you couldn't keep the bastards going.
In our scrub pulling application all that kept us afloat was the fact Tutt Bryant were pretty good with parts availability and the Boss learnt to fly and bought a Cessna 206 . . . we became pretty good at building bush strips, it mostly took less than an hour from virgin scrub to aircraft on the ground.
That all changed when we took delivery of two D9G's. I picked them up from Hastings Deering's Dalby branch on Christmas eve 1965 . . . and they clocked eleven paid hours each on Christmas day.
Those tractors did have some teething problems. One chewed up a bevel gear and pinion but Hasting's stood by us and then came a series of D8's for pulling and raking, a D6 for a railway job and several J621 eggbeaters for irrigation channel work.
Without exception the Cats paid their way and then some . . . supported always by good parts availability and--this is what I have been working up to--excellent technical support and manuals.
With the manuals an interested bush bloke such as myself (with little education beyond the fact that my mother taught me to read) could perform increasingly complex repairs under the most primitive of conditions.
Caterpillar manuals became my Bible and I would literally spend hours pouring over details, cross referencing with the parts book and, with my prized set of Starret micrometers I taught my self the art of fixing Cats.
It's been all down hill from there and forty years later friends with a D6 just out of warranty have to fly a technician in and chopper him to the broken down machine because they can't get full access to the diagnostic details . . . the machine has since been sold and replaced by an old oval track machine of what was once considered an inferior make .
A contractor with three excavators on a road job told me he is not game to take some of the newer machines into remote areas and he is rebuilding old machines for his gas line work in the North West.
This is not the Caterpillar equipment I knew and I feel a certain illogical sadness that this once proud company appears to have spread itself so thin and has so many irons in the fire that it is incapable of maintaining quality and service across it's full range of products.
This marketing and quality debacle with the vocational trucks seems further evidence of the malaise infecting the organization and perhaps it is time for them to rethink their direction and get back to what one was there core business . . .simple effective equipment for moving dirt.
The dirt and the rocks and the trees remain the same, it's only the equipment that has become complex and fragile.
End of rant and Cheers.
Thanks for your long and detailed post Karl Robbers. I find the following paragraph extremely relevant and uncomfortably close to the bone.
From your comments about Caterpillar, the company so respected by your grandfather, your first boss and who built your D7 being dead and gone I sense you feel much the same as me . . . and perhaps millions of other blokes who ran and worked on the gear when Cat indeed was king.
I'm going on an off topic ramble here but it's my thread so it doesn't matter. (grins). Folks on here a while will know my experience is limited mainly to the larger 1960's era dozers, the scrapers they pushed and the trucks that hauled them.
Back then Cat used to be the yardstick by which performance was measured and, for the most part, you paid a premium when financing a Cat. For years the small company I worked for ran Allis Chalmers dozers and it must be said in their day most Allis's performance wise were as good or better than the equivalent Cat . . . but you couldn't keep the bastards going.
In our scrub pulling application all that kept us afloat was the fact Tutt Bryant were pretty good with parts availability and the Boss learnt to fly and bought a Cessna 206 . . . we became pretty good at building bush strips, it mostly took less than an hour from virgin scrub to aircraft on the ground.
That all changed when we took delivery of two D9G's. I picked them up from Hastings Deering's Dalby branch on Christmas eve 1965 . . . and they clocked eleven paid hours each on Christmas day.
Those tractors did have some teething problems. One chewed up a bevel gear and pinion but Hasting's stood by us and then came a series of D8's for pulling and raking, a D6 for a railway job and several J621 eggbeaters for irrigation channel work.
Without exception the Cats paid their way and then some . . . supported always by good parts availability and--this is what I have been working up to--excellent technical support and manuals.
With the manuals an interested bush bloke such as myself (with little education beyond the fact that my mother taught me to read) could perform increasingly complex repairs under the most primitive of conditions.
Caterpillar manuals became my Bible and I would literally spend hours pouring over details, cross referencing with the parts book and, with my prized set of Starret micrometers I taught my self the art of fixing Cats.
It's been all down hill from there and forty years later friends with a D6 just out of warranty have to fly a technician in and chopper him to the broken down machine because they can't get full access to the diagnostic details . . . the machine has since been sold and replaced by an old oval track machine of what was once considered an inferior make .
A contractor with three excavators on a road job told me he is not game to take some of the newer machines into remote areas and he is rebuilding old machines for his gas line work in the North West.
This is not the Caterpillar equipment I knew and I feel a certain illogical sadness that this once proud company appears to have spread itself so thin and has so many irons in the fire that it is incapable of maintaining quality and service across it's full range of products.
This marketing and quality debacle with the vocational trucks seems further evidence of the malaise infecting the organization and perhaps it is time for them to rethink their direction and get back to what one was there core business . . .simple effective equipment for moving dirt.
The dirt and the rocks and the trees remain the same, it's only the equipment that has become complex and fragile.
End of rant and Cheers.
Scrub, there's lots of points here you took the words straight out of my brain, and in one case those of a logger friend. The old boy told me about logging with an AC dozer in the 60's said it was a real bull, but he had to keep a CAT D7 on the landing for when the AC broke down which was common. CAT was indeed the standard back then.
Your words about loving CAT service manuals struck a deep chord with me, as a young brute working on sixes and sevens and paddle wheel scrapers I spent many an evening educating myself on the finer points of power train operation and power flow, hydraulic circuits and the like. Those books were the epitome of boiling down engineering information into something that was translated into "mechanic", complete with color coded drawings. The total opposite at the time were Japanese manuals which were at best sparse in information and often translated poorly from the original into British, probably was not much trouble for you, but us Yanks had to look up what the hell a spanner and commencer were for instance.
Heavy equipment has become so expensive and unreliable I don't see how going forward it can be sustainable. All the bells, whistles, features and meeting of asinine emissions standards is all well and good, but we have reached the point of zero emissions and 100% safety because the damn things won't stay running!
In another world, you can get fantastic bargains on big motor homes here these days, with CAT ACERT diesels, and spend all your vacations being towed to one CAT dealer after the next. If you google it a bit the horror stories are long and often, it's almost unbelievable. It's the same with big road trucks but there the industry doesn't take it so personal, even though it has bankrupted some owners and small companies.
Your words about loving CAT service manuals struck a deep chord with me, as a young brute working on sixes and sevens and paddle wheel scrapers I spent many an evening educating myself on the finer points of power train operation and power flow, hydraulic circuits and the like. Those books were the epitome of boiling down engineering information into something that was translated into "mechanic", complete with color coded drawings. The total opposite at the time were Japanese manuals which were at best sparse in information and often translated poorly from the original into British, probably was not much trouble for you, but us Yanks had to look up what the hell a spanner and commencer were for instance.
Heavy equipment has become so expensive and unreliable I don't see how going forward it can be sustainable. All the bells, whistles, features and meeting of asinine emissions standards is all well and good, but we have reached the point of zero emissions and 100% safety because the damn things won't stay running!
In another world, you can get fantastic bargains on big motor homes here these days, with CAT ACERT diesels, and spend all your vacations being towed to one CAT dealer after the next. If you google it a bit the horror stories are long and often, it's almost unbelievable. It's the same with big road trucks but there the industry doesn't take it so personal, even though it has bankrupted some owners and small companies.
Scrub Puller
Senior Member
Yair . . .
Good one lantraxco, I reckon that'll end up the quote of the year. . . thanks for your words and thoughts.
As I have mentioned I have a certain disbelief and sadness that the industry and Caterpillar in particular have been allowed to come to this.
Cheers.
Good one lantraxco, I reckon that'll end up the quote of the year. . . thanks for your words and thoughts.
As I have mentioned I have a certain disbelief and sadness that the industry and Caterpillar in particular have been allowed to come to this.
Cheers.
Shimmy1
Senior Member
I would rather say "forced" than "allowed" because the U.S. EPA regulations are the reason we can't have a diesel engine that will run longer than 2000 hours without some kind of component or system failure. It's all bull$hit anymore. My 2014 excavator with 1800 hours had two failed injectors this fall. 6 days down, and what would have been a $5000 repair bill if not for warranty.
Scrub Puller
Senior Member
Yair . . .
I hear you Shimmy1.
I have never been able to understand why all earthmoving equipment has to comply to the standard regulations . . . as I mentioned up thread perhaps those regulations will get a tweak with the new administration?
Having said that it seems some manufacturers are managing better than Cat and that's the part that hurts.
Had an interesting talk to an oldish about to retire truckie and he reckons the problem is the perceived need for speed. He reckons if all the trucks were wound back to 250hp the world would still go around and most of the engine troubles, transmission and tyre troubles would just go away.
Cheers.
I hear you Shimmy1.
I have never been able to understand why all earthmoving equipment has to comply to the standard regulations . . . as I mentioned up thread perhaps those regulations will get a tweak with the new administration?
Having said that it seems some manufacturers are managing better than Cat and that's the part that hurts.
Had an interesting talk to an oldish about to retire truckie and he reckons the problem is the perceived need for speed. He reckons if all the trucks were wound back to 250hp the world would still go around and most of the engine troubles, transmission and tyre troubles would just go away.
Cheers.
Birken Vogt
Charter Member
I remember watching this whole thing go down as it happened like a slow motion train wreck...the other manufacturers swiftly went to cooled EGR but Cat was trying to differentiate themselves, had a "better idea" and that was staged turbos, Rube Goldberg valve apparatus and who knows what else. Plus they did not meet emissions targets even at the times while the competitors did, and so they were paying huge fines per engine built because the EPA apparently will accept $$$ in lieu of compliance. I remember a sticker on a 3208 in the 80s that indicated the same thing so nothing new here apparently. But evidently it broke them in the end and the management threw in the towel.
So I would say that in large part Caterpillar did it to themselves. If they had followed with the herd then we would probably still have Cat road engines save for the vertical integration that has also been happening at the same time.
IH/Navistar is another one that damaged themselves badly by going with high % EGR in lieu of DEF, even though their strategy was not working at all they stubbornly continued pushing ahead. Not sure where that one ended up as I don't follow trucks any more.
But I sure do hope the current administration neuters this nonsense, Tier 4 standards are far too strict by any stretch of the imagination and nobody can meet them without a lot of junk. But I don't hold much hope for it, but it would be a nice surprise.
Well, the news for Tier 5 (Yes, it's a thing) is that the entire treatment process will occur in a separate self contained exhaust unit with DEF (I HATE that crap) which supposedly will allow for much better reliability. Yeah, and they said computers would lead to paperless offices too....
92U 3406
Senior Member
As long as EGR becomes obsolete I'm fine with that. Whoever thought pumping dirty, abrasive soot into the intake of any engine was a good idea needs a slap in the face.
Birken Vogt
Charter Member
IIRC that was one good idea Cat seemed to have. They used clean EGR from after the filter. I guess that idea did not catch on for some reason.
Scrub Puller
Senior Member
Yair . . .
Well it's an interesting thread but after a couple of pages of responses I am none the wiser as to the true status of Caterpillar in the vocational truck market.
That is to say . . . are they out of the business completely, are they back into manufacturing road engines, are they just producing models specifically for Australia and new Zealand.
There are so many questions and I just sent a query to Hastings asking where the Australian trucks were manufactured and if they have Caterpillar engines.
I'll update the thread if they reply.
Cheers.
Well it's an interesting thread but after a couple of pages of responses I am none the wiser as to the true status of Caterpillar in the vocational truck market.
That is to say . . . are they out of the business completely, are they back into manufacturing road engines, are they just producing models specifically for Australia and new Zealand.
There are so many questions and I just sent a query to Hastings asking where the Australian trucks were manufactured and if they have Caterpillar engines.
I'll update the thread if they reply.
Cheers.
hvy 1ton
Senior Member
Had no idea tier 5 was a thing. DEF isn't bad, as long as you don't let it touch anything you like and keep it way from the dust. 
Well, it's like the old saw about school, it's not that it's all that bad, it's just the principal of the thing (sic)Had no idea tier 5 was a thing. DEF isn't bad, as long as you don't let it touch anything you like and keep it way from the dust.
nowing75
Senior Member
We have had good luck with the c12
hvy 1ton
Senior Member
Pretty much.
Kiwi-truckwit
Senior Member
As far as I'm aware, they're running an updated C15. There's quite a few running around here now, I haven't driven one yet but we have a rental from time to time.
The biggest truck lease outfit in NZ (TR group) has several of them, Toll lease a lot of their units so there's a good chance that the Cat running around in their livery is a leased truck.
I've heard mixed reviews about them from drivers, they seem to have a few turbo issues but otherwise are doing the job. A large company with several bulk tippers has bought a few Cats in the last couple of years, plus some companies local to me.