Case 850K won't move foward or reverse

[vcat]

The dozer worked fine all morning. I was clearing brush and saplings from an overgrown field to create more pasture. I shut down for lunch. When I returned it fired up normal and everything came up as it should but when I shifted forward- nothing, reverse- nothing. Display on dash shows "N" no "F" or "R". I checked codes but came up with nothing. There were some old codes concerning the bump up bump down and the throttle, but they are working fine. No codes concerning powertrain controller or anything like that. This is an 850K series 2 with 3500 hours.
Any ideas, thoughts or information on how to troubleshoot the problem would be greatly appreciated.

 

[skadill]

The dozer worked fine all morning. I was clearing brush and saplings from an overgrown field to create more pasture. I shut down for lunch. When I returned it fired up normal and everything came up as it should but when I shifted forward- nothing, reverse- nothing. Display on dash shows "N" no "F" or "R". I checked codes but came up with nothing. There were some old codes concerning the bump up bump down and the throttle, but they are working fine. No codes concerning powertrain controller or anything like that. This is an 850K series 2 with 3500 hours.
Any ideas, thoughts or information on how to troubleshoot the problem would be greatly appreciated.

The K's have less than amazing electrical system,check the 1 or 2 amp fuse,I had the same thing happen few years back,still had hydraulics,just no frwd/rev.Fuse is all it was

 

[GaryHoff]

Start by checking your safety levers. You will see a orange light on the lever proxy switch, should turn green when you put the levers down. (if you open the side doors you can see the proxy switch with the light on it)

Check the fuses and relays. They get corroded and cause low volts, and can send low power to your controllers.

 

[vcat]

First, skadill and GaryHoff, thanks for the replies.

I checked the fuses inside the swing up door and on the side of the console. They all checked good. I pulled the small relays, checked and cleaned the connections. There was some corrosion but not a lot. Now, on the display I get "NO CAN". I get a "Transmission Fault" light on the instrument panel that stays on. When I start it the bump up/dn doesn't default to 6 any more. The display doesn't show any fault codes. I couldn't see any lights on the safety levers. The round switch appears light blue on the end.
I couldn't find an explanation for the no can display in the book but it doesn't sound good.

 

[GaryHoff]

No can means that the controllers can't communicate. On the 9 pin deutsch diagnostic connector, check pins C & D, with the key off. Should have 120 ohms. If not, there is a can resistor inline in the harness under the dash that sometimes burns out.

With key on, A should be ground, and B should be 12v. C should be 2.4volts , and D should be 2.6 volts.

Advise with test results.

**The 9 pin deutsch connector should be under the left side door by the fuse box.

** one of the last posts, they found some rubbed wires at the joystick.

 

[vcat]

9 pin deutsch connector reads:

c to d - 123 ohms

a to b - 12.37 volts

a to c - 2.19 volts

a to d - 2.12 volts

 

[vcat]

I found the proxy lights. Green is on all time, levers up or down. Orange is on only when levers are up.

 

[GaryHoff]

From your readings it appears that your can resistor is good, (123ohms)
You have power at the daig connector

Your CAN voltages are too close. This suggests that a controller is offline. Either its not getting power, or has an open wire to its can, or it has failed. You will need to check all your controllers for power and ground and CAN.

 

[GaryHoff]

Check the following pins, they should all read 123ohms
Left joystick, pins 3 and 4.
Travel controller, pins 26 and 27.
Display dash, pins 23 and 29.

Check the following for power:
Left joystick, pins 1, and 5
Travel controller, pins 1, 2, 7, and 28
Display dash pins 1 and 28

Take a close look at the wires under the display, I have seen them rub through. Same for the left joystick.

 

[vcat]

GaryHoff
Thanks for the information and help. I understand a little and don't understand a lot.
I ran the checks today.

continuity check
left joystick (connector unplugged)
pin 3 and pin 4 - 38.23 ohms (joystick side) 116.7 ohms (Connector side)

travel controller (connector unplugged)
pin 26 and pin 27 - 7.87 K ohms (module side) 121.0 ohms (connector side)

display dash (connector unplugged)
pin 23 and 29 - 38.63 ohms (dash side) 117 ohms (connector side)

power check
left joystick
pin 1 - 12.39 volts
pin 5 - 12.37 volts

travel controller
pin 1 - .018 volts
pin 2 - 12.39 volts
pin 7 - .018 volts
pin 28 - .018 volts

display dash
pin 1 - 11.87 volts
pin 28 - 12.43 volts

wiring under joystick and behind dash looked fine.

 

[GaryHoff]

You have proper CAN ohms at all the connectors (connector side is what we are concerned about) This tells us that the CAN harness should be good.

Your travel controller is not getting power at all the pins. Sorry, I forgot to tell you be in neutral and to put the safety levers down when checking the travel controller power wires.
If you do not have power at all the wires with the levers down, then jump power to them and try it. I like to use a fuse holder, in case something goes wrong you pop a fuse instead of melting wires. If you don't have a fuse holder, just use spade connectors to a 1amp atc fuse. (I suggest a 1amp fuse because if I remember right, the controller takes a 1amp fuse in the fuse box)
The travel controller connector is easy to take apart, and you can easily back probe power to the wires as needed, with the controller plugged in.


Travel controller power pins.
Pin 1, switched power from safety relay
Pin 2, Power from fuse block
Pin 7, power from neutral relay
Pin 28 Switched power from safety relay

Please check the above and advise. All of your other checks appear to be good.

 

[vcat]

controller power (levers down)
pin 1 - 12.49 volts
pin 2 - 12.31 volts
pin 7 - 11.48 volts
pin 28 - 12.32 volts

 

[GaryHoff]

Does the dash still say "NO CAN" ?

Check your ground wires at the battery disconnect switch.

Check you can voltages at the 9 pin deutsch connector. Unplug one controller at a time, and see what the voltages are. (go pin c to ground, and then pin d to ground, you will have to do this 3 times, once for each controller unplugged. Each check will need 2 controllers plugged in, and powered up.

The CAN voltages should get a 0.2 difference with the bad controller unplugged.

Without case software, you cant see what controller is offline.. All of your checks indicate to me that they should all be online. Its possible there may be a bad controller.

 

[vcat]

I think I understand the checks. Just inside door is a board with what looks like nine small relays plugged in. Are these the controllers? If so how do I determine the three controllers I need to check?

 

[vcat]

I found in the service manual the location of the control relays. I wasn't sure which three we needed to check so I checked several.

controller pulled: a and c a and d

2 -brake 2.15 v 2.08 v
6 -handle neutral 2.15 v 2.08 v
7 -tractor 2.15 v 2.08 v
8 -micro controller 2.88 v 1.44 v
10 -neutral ok 2.16 v 2.09 v
11 -safety 2.15 v 2.08 v

battery disconnect wiring ok
display does still say no can

 

[GaryHoff]

Sorry for the confusion, maybe this will make more sense. (I referred to the joystick, the travel controller, and the dash display as the controllers)

Unplug the Left joystick. Turn the key on, and at the 9 pin deutsch connector check power from pin A and C. Then check power from pins A and D.
Plug back in the left joystick

Unplug the travel controller. Turn the key on, and at the 9 pin deutsch connector check power from pin A and C. Then check power from pins A and D.
Plug back in the travel controller.

Unplug the dash display. Turn the key on, and at the 9 pin deutsch connector check power from pin A and C. Then check power from pins A and D.
Plug back in the dash display.

Check the above and let me know.

 

[vcat]

I appreciate your taking time to help. Sorry, I was just having trouble understanding the terminology.

joystick unplugged - a and c 3.07v, a and d 1.61v

dash display unplugged - a and c 2.68v, a and d 1.88v

travel controller unplugged - a and c .02v, a and d .07v

 

[GaryHoff]

I'm glad I can help. I know these checks are getting long, but I don't like to condemn an expensive part without all the proper checks. As long as you don't mind these tests, I don't mind helping.

When the ignition is turn on, do the gauges on the dash display function? Does the speed needle come up to 60% speed?
With the joystick unplugged did the dash display still say "NO CAN" ?

The voltage readings seem a little odd to me, I just want to make sure you checked it right.

1. With the joystick unplugged, the dash and travel controller were both still plugged in and powered up, (safety levers down)

2. with the dash display unplugged, the joystick and travel controller were both still plugged in and powered up (safety levers down)

3. With the travel controller unplugged, the joystick and dash display were both still plugged in and powered up (safety levers down)

********************************************************************************************************************


New checks,

4. With only the left joystick plugged in. (dash and travel controller unplugged) Turn the key on, safety levers down, and at the 9 pin deutsch connector check power from pin A and C. Then check power from pins A and D.

5. With only the dash display plugged in (travel controller and left joystick unplugged). Turn the key on, safety levers down, and at the 9 pin deutsch connector check power from pin A and C. Then check power from pins A and D.

6. With only the travel controller plugged in (dash display and left joystick unplugged). Turn the key on, safety levers down, and at the 9 pin deutsch connector check power from pin A and C. Then check power from pins A and D.

 

[vcat]

I don't mind the checks at all. In addition to troubleshooting the problem, it helps me learn how the dozer operates. I understand too, without Case software, troubleshooting is like taking the long way around. The checks are not hard to do. I have a helper- my wife. She is an automotive instructor assistant at a local tech. school, so she is a big help.

The voltage readings we took yesterday were taken with one controller unplugged and the other two plugged in, key on and levers down. Three sets of two readings. Readings were at a and c and a and d at the diagnostic plug.

____________________________________________________________________________________

Today's checks

4. Left joystick plugged in. Dash and travel controller unplugged. Key on safety levers down.
a and c 2.91v a and d 2.09

5. Dash display plugged in. Travel controller and joystick unplugged. Key on safety levers down.
a and c 3.26v a and d 1.80v

6. Travel controller plugged in. Dash display and left joystick unplugged. Key on safety levers down.
a and c .09v a and d .11v

Also, when ignition is turned on display shows machine hours. Before the problem, I could press the top of second rocker button from right to get engine RPM but now I get "no can". I get the same thing with joystick unplugged.

 

[GaryHoff]

Hmmmm.........

Seem to have some conflicting readings, from post 17 to post 19.

With only the travel controller plugged in, there was 0.09v and 0.11v.
With the dash display and joystick plugged in, and the travel controller unplugged, there was 0.02v and 0.07v (should have had around 2v power there)
Doesn't add up to proper readings to me. I think one of the tests went wrong.

The last 2 tests are not too timely to do, and I think they need to be re-done.

Assuming that post 19 is correct, the travel controller is not coming on.
(only do the following, if you have confirmed that your last post is correct, post 19)

At the travel controller, check your grounds. Pin 30, and pin 25 are grounds.

With the travel controller plugged in, back probe your power wires, key on, safety levers down. This will tell you if there is a voltage drop to the travel controller.

You may want to use the battery post as your grounding point, instead of pin A, to see if different results are obtained.