Case 580B - Water In Crankcase

[Gary N]

I have a 1972 Case 580B backhoe with the hydro-static transmission and 188 series diesel engine (I believe). I just put in a new radiator, water pump, and thermostat only to find out that all my water goes straight from the radiator to the crankcase I don't think I overheated it when I was running it with the old leaky radiator that I always had to feed with water, but now I'm wondering. I looked on Case's website and see that the piston sleeves are o-ringed. I figure that I either have a blown head gasket, broken piston sleeve o-ring, or cracked block. I'm thinking if its a cracked block that I'm toast. But if its a head gasket or o-ring problem on a sleeve I have a fighting chance to get her fixed up. I'm hoping that a head gasket or o-ring would fail before the block cracks. Anyone know what the most common problem is when the water would rather be in the crankcase instead of the radiator, and what I might be up against? Appreciate any input and advice.

 

[shopguy]

Maybe you will be ok, i would pull the oil pan and see which cyl.it is leaking from so you can give that one a good exam.Also i know this is a long shot but was it doing this before the water pump & rad. change ?

 

[Gary N]

I'm really not sure if it was doing it before the water pump and rad. change. I parked it when the radiator went south and she sat about a year. What are ya thinking on that long shot? Also, I will be able to identify a bad sleeve with just the pan off?

 

[shopguy]

Well i was hoping that if it started after the change maybe that it could be leaking from something in the water pump area leaking into the timeing cover, can't remember just how a 188 is made there. Yea take the pan off And fill her up&see where it is coming from.Then when you take her down you will know where to look . Hope this helps

 

[packratc]

Fill it up with water and put air pressure through the radiator. You can pull the injectors and see if you get water in a cylinder, then it's hopefully a head gasket. Better bet is to pull the pan & have a buddy apply air to the water in the radiator and you'll probably see the water seeping from the bottom of the offending sleeve. I rebuilt mine in-frame and have had good luck with the engine. There's a lengthy thread here about the rebuild. It's scary when you say "all" the water ends up in the crankcase. Good Luck! Packratc

 

[sheepfoot]

I think i would pull the valve cover first and check the freeze plugs in the head, install rad hand pump and check, then pull the pan and do the same with the hand pump taking a close look to see if water is running down the inside of the liner or around the sleeves at the base. I would not pull the head untill the pan is removed and inspected for pressure checking reasons.

 

[Gary N]

Fill it up with water and put air pressure through the radiator. You can pull the injectors and see if you get water in a cylinder, then it's hopefully a head gasket. Better bet is to pull the pan & have a buddy apply air to the water in the radiator and you'll probably see the water seeping from the bottom of the offending sleeve. I rebuilt mine in-frame and have had good luck with the engine. There's a lengthy thread here about the rebuild. It's scary when you say "all" the water ends up in the crankcase. Good Luck! Packratc

packratc, I ran it twice and let it run until I was positive the thermostat opened. Maybe idled it twice for about 10 minute each. Between those 2 runs, about 3 gallons of water went to the case.

 

[Gary N]

I like the pressure test idea. Should I remove the thermostat or leave it it when I do it?

 

[willie59]

Dumping 3 gallons in twenty minutes into the crankcase? If you get the valve cover and oil pan removed, shouldn't be hard to find that bad of a leak source.

 

[Gary N]

Fill it up with water and put air pressure through the radiator. You can pull the injectors and see if you get water in a cylinder, then it's hopefully a head gasket. Better bet is to pull the pan & have a buddy apply air to the water in the radiator and you'll probably see the water seeping from the bottom of the offending sleeve. I rebuilt mine in-frame and have had good luck with the engine. There's a lengthy thread here about the rebuild. It's scary when you say "all" the water ends up in the crankcase. Good Luck! Packratc

packratc, Thanks for all the great input.....can you point me to that thread on the rebuild?

 

[davis1676]

I had the same problem on a ford backhoe and the head gasket was the problem. I also had another machine that I replaced the head gasket on and it still leaked into the oil and I bought some stuff that you pour into the radiator and run the machine for a hour or so and then flush it out. I never believed in that kind of stuff but it worked and that machine is still running with no problems. I believe I ordered it offline. Your machine is leaking so bad you will have to pull the head.

 

[packratc]

Your leak is going to be pretty evident. Could this machine have frozen at any time? Does it miss? Can you run a compression check? Isn't there a bolt behind the water pump that goes through the water pump housing and into the head? Could you have taken that out and left it out? If you just put water in it and don't run it, does it leak just sitting there? That is a "bad" leak. Packratc

 

[packratc]

The in-frame rebuild thread is "Bad Miss, may have major trouble! 1967 580ck. Roughest backhoe in captivity." I had a little drama going on at the time with money leaking out kinda' like your water. It just got worse after that. Good luck. Packratc

 

[Gary N]

Your leak is going to be pretty evident. Could this machine have frozen at any time? Does it miss? Can you run a compression check? Isn't there a bolt behind the water pump that goes through the water pump housing and into the head? Could you have taken that out and left it out? If you just put water in it and don't run it, does it leak just sitting there? That is a "bad" leak. Packratc

Wow...you really got me thinking here on the water bolts. I bought the water pump from Case so Id imagine its OEM. Now there was a note in their to use the supplied bolts (they were longer) based on a serial numbers. I cant remember but it said to use your original bolts if it was before s/n xxxcc and the supplied bolts if it was after s/n xxx. I'm pretty sure I used the originals because the water pump matched exactly the same as the one I took of. I cant remember #$*! anymore. As far as a bolt behind the water pump that goes through......I don't think I left any bolts out. I drained the oil tonight and refilled the radiator with water. Ill see tomorrow night if its leaking through just sitting there. The possibility of it freezing does exist as it went through a winter without antifreeze because of the bad radiator and I just fed it for awhile. Its hard for me to work on it on weeknights but I sure have a lot to check out this weekend thanks to all of you guys! I'll post what I find as soon as I find it.

 

[willie59]

Here's the link to thread referenced by packratc in post #13. > https://www.heavyequipmentforums.co...80ck-Roughest-backhoe-in-captivity&highlight=

 

[packratc]

The bolt I was remembering you, I don't think would remove just to change the impeller part of the water pump. This one, if I remember right, is behind the impeller and bolts the water pump housing to the head. I really don't think you would even see it or know it was there unless you were taking the head or the water pump housing off. But by your description you've got a LARGE amount of water getting into bad places and that sort of leak should be pretty evident. Good Luck! Hey, I'm not necessaarily one of them, but there's a terrific amount of knowledge on this site and from good folks who are generous with their time and with sharing their expertise. These folks can help you fix it. Packratc

 

[Tinkerer]

If it were mine I wouldn't start and run the engine with that much water going into the oil pan that fast.

 

[packratc]

It would/will be interesting to see if that large amount of water goes straight to the oil pan without starting it. I'd try it just for the heck if it and wouldn't waste the expense of putting oil into it. Of course I wouldn't even turn it over with the starter without putting oil in it. If it's like mine it starts in a hurry when it's moderate temperature out. Packratc

 

[shopguy]

Does that 188 head have any freez plugs under the valve cover?

 

[Gary N]

So as ya'll know I drip dried the crankcase last night, filled the radiator and checked tonight. First clue, the radiator was down about and inch, and sure as poop, a good 2 cups of crystal clear water came out the oil drain plug. I never started it. That's just sitting for about 24 hours. I'm starting to think I did something stupid when I put the new water pump on. I will be looking for a freeze plug when I take the valve cover off soon. Both sheepfoot and shopguy mentioned freeze plugs under the valve cover. Could I get so lucky!! I don't even want to think about a cracked block. Then I'm not sure if I'll go back into the water pump installation or pull the pan and do the pressure test ya'll advised.
packratc....thanks to willie59 I got to your thread on your adventure with your rebuild. I bow down to you and it was great reading. You are right about all these folks! Ya'll are great people helping me on this issue. I'll be digging in hard this weekend and finding some answers thanks to all of you. Its nice to have direction when you don't know where to start!! Now I have a plan. Thanks all. I will keep this post going as I go.